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Honda to Put Hydrogen FCX Concept into Production in 3–4 Years
8 January 2006
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| The new production FCX will be similar to this concept version. |
Honda Motor Co announced that it will begin production in Japan of its next-generation FCX hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (FCV) in three to four years, signalling rapid advancement in Honda’s fuel cell technology.
The recently introduced FCX Concept (earlier post), according to Honda President and CEO Takeo Fukui, “is very close to [that] next generation fuel cell vehicle...In fact, this fall ... we will begin limited driving opportunities with a prototype version of this vehicle.”
The new FCX Concept uses a new, compact 3V System fuel cell platform that enables the lowest-floor platform in a fuel cell vehicle yet. Oxygen and hydrogen flow from the top to the bottom of the fuel cell stack (Vertical gas flow) and the fuel cells are arranged vertically in the center tunnel (Vertebral layout) for new, high-efficiency fuel cell packaging (Volume efficiency).
The new stack delivers 100 kW of power, compared to the 86 kw of the 2006 FCX. The key to the fuel cell’s performance is water management; Honda’s new system takes full advantage of gravity to efficiently discharge water formed during electricity generation.
This improves performance in sub-zero temperatures, further solving the problem of cold-weather startup that has been a key obstacle to the commercialization of FCVs. With the 3V system, Honda has achieved ultra-low-temperature start-up performance on par with that of a gasoline engine.
The drivetrain uses three energy-efficient motors-one 80kW in the front and a 25kW space-efficient motor in each rear wheel. A newly developed hydrogen absorption material in the tank doubles capacity to 5 kg of hydrogen at 5000 PSI, extending cruising range to 350 miles, equivalent to that of a gasoline-engine car.
January 8, 2006 in Fuel Cells, Hydrogen | Permalink | Comments (36) | TrackBack (4)
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Comments
Hey hey, a fuel cell car is going into production. How can everyone keep quiet about this one? This is waaay too impressive if they can really roll out a production version of these fancy fuel cell car. And by the way, it is 70 miles per kg of hydrogen, very good figure for a hydrogen car.
So lets see how the price tag will looks like. Since everybody saying that a fuel cell car do not make any money sense.
Posted by: rexis | Jan 8, 2006 11:52:54 PM
Some questions:
1. Where and how is this car going to be refueled?
2. Where will this car be available?
3. Will this car's fuel be derived from a clean energy
source?
Posted by: cs1992 | Jan 9, 2006 2:50:38 AM
I applaud them for their efforts and drive.
I think this is great but the major obstacle to Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles is not the car but the production of hydrogen. Currently, hydrogen is most commonly produced from Natural gas, coal or electrolysis. The first two produce significant amounts of CO2 and do not make it an environmentally friendly option. The latter is expensive, inefficient and if you consider well to wheel, also produces significant C02 as most of our electricity is produced using carbon based fuels. Another issue with these methods is the cost making hydrogen significantly more expensive than carbon based fuels. Even with carbon capture, the cost of producing the hydrogen makes it far more expensive than gasoline or diesel fuel.
For fuel cell vehicles to become common place, a more efficient, cost effective and environmentally friendly way of producing hydrogen must be developed. As well as the infrastructure to support it's distribution. The use of next gen nuclear plants that will produce electricity and hydrogen are at least 10 years out. I also know stand alone production facilities are being developed that use solar energy and electrolysis but these are expensive, inefficient (both due to efficiency of current solar cells and electrolysis technology), do not produce enough volume for mass use, and as they are dependant on the sun not practical everywhere.
Posted by: skimonster | Jan 9, 2006 4:36:32 AM
3-4 years? Wow.
I too wonder the price, anything under $150k USD would be surprising.
Did the FCX concept include hydrogen regeneration via regenerative braking? Or Maybe a small capacitor array for minor regen?
Posted by: Ash | Jan 9, 2006 8:22:45 AM
Honda is going to surprise a few people I think. I see them comming out with a home hydrogen system powered by electricty, from the grid or thier own honda solar cells. I bet the car will be very expensive too but between $70-100k.
Posted by: hampden wireless | Jan 9, 2006 8:28:27 AM
It seems like it would make very little sense to produce a hydrogen vehichle that didn't incorporate the hybrid technology that's emerging. My guess is that Honda expects these vehicles will be fueled using hydrogen produced from reforming NG. Honda will also probably be trying to sell their home refueling station to individual consumers. I would expect that a lot of their initial sales will come from fleet purchases where the fueling infrastructure problem is much easier to overcome.
Posted by: Tripp Bisop | Jan 9, 2006 8:33:45 AM
Not a word about price.
The dependence on fossil fuels is the big issue. It'll take less than half as much electricity to power an electric car as to electrolyze hydrogen for this FCV, and the new fast-charge Li-ion cells kick this thing's butt for power. The time to charge is probably as fast as a fill of hydrogen. Cost? The batteries are probably better there too.
Posted by: Engineer-Poet | Jan 9, 2006 9:35:27 AM
Some questions:
1. Where and how is this car going to be refueled?
In all likelyhood the first few cars will used for fleet trials and feasability studies. So I would imagine that the first cars will be sold through utilities companies and energy suppliers, similar to the way many CNG cars are marketed today.
But refueling stations already exist. There's one at Munich airport, Germany, as BMW started to sell hydrogen-capable combustion engines some 10 or 15 years ago, albeit in microscopic numbers.
2. Where will this car be available?
Most likely only in areas that have or will have by then the necessary infrastructure. San Francisco / Silicon Valley and other parts of California come to mind.
3. Will this car's fuel be derived from a clean energy
source?
Hydrogen production is governed by market laws as is oil. Right now, hydrogen for cars is merely a byproduct of industrial hydrogen production and is mainly derived from natural gas or coal. As demand will increase, other sources will be tapped.
Posted by: Martin | Jan 9, 2006 9:49:29 AM
Pie in the sky.
Posted by: Lucas | Jan 9, 2006 12:47:12 PM
Pie in the face, more like. (Ours.)
Posted by: Shirley E | Jan 9, 2006 1:56:32 PM
Engineer is right. Battery powered cars are a much better idea for several reasons:
1. Efficiency
2. Infrastructure already exists or is much easier
to modify.
3. Hydrogen generation is dirty if derived from
fossil fuels. Reforming from natural gas at point
of demand (ie. your home) offers no means to
sequester CO2.
Only problem is there's no future for big oil in a battery powered world.
Posted by: cs1992 | Jan 9, 2006 3:29:19 PM
I was right about the home fueling station, but it is powered by natural gas. They are cutting the fuel companies out of the picture.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10776681/
Posted by: hampden wireless | Jan 9, 2006 4:26:17 PM
Fuel cells are alot closer to prduction ready then most expect. As for the fuel depending on local costs for natural gas and other feedstocks it can be cheaper then gasoline in many parts of the world. Remember many places already have 7 dollar a gallon gas due to taxes.. home hydro thus avoids alot of that.
Posted by: wintermane | Jan 9, 2006 6:11:01 PM
I'm feeling pretty annoyed hearing folks trotting out the "dirty hydrogen" argument yet again....And worse yet, the "this is just another way for oil companies to screw us more" conspiracy theory.
How many people do you think will have these cars initially? And hello? How efficient is that ICE burning gasoline we have to fight everyone in the Middle East to keep flowing... Compared to fuel cells. Wheels to wells this is a serious improvement even if you're making H2 from coal.
Certainly we have to reform H2 from a better source than CNG, and yes, someday we'll need to be storing the H2 at night off big wind turbines or during the day from a home solar system... But getting a hot looking fuel cell car like this on the road and letting people reform H2 in their garages from CNG is what I would call on balance a pretty damn good start on the road to really clean, sustainable car technology.
Posted by: Lance Funston | Jan 10, 2006 1:00:19 AM
The only sensible reason to pay high prices for a fuel cell car is to lower CO2 emissions. Right now Hydrogen is made from natural gas (methane actually), a fossil fuel. Advantage: nil. Some dreamers have thought that we will, in the future, produce hydrogen from electrolysis of water. Electricity being produced by WTGs (wind turbine generators) or nuclear power plants. The only trouble is that when you start figuring out the efficiency of such a route: electrolysis, compression (loss by heat plus much energy to run the compressor) or liquefaction (at 11°K with even more energy consumption to refrigerate at such low temperature), transport, decompression (more losses) plus the fact that hydrogen has a tendency to leak from just about any container, you end up with a global efficiency less than 5%. Yes, 5%. The morale of a little thermodynamics is that the only way to run a car with zero emissions will be to use batteries, better than now; gas stations will turn into battery-packs exchange and the batteries will be recharged using renewable ways of producing electricity, such as WTGs or solar photovoltaic panels, where the main drawback of such sources (output varies with sun or wind) plays no role whatsoever.
Posted by: Engineer scientist | Jan 10, 2006 3:33:00 AM
Excerpts from a copyrighted newsletter published December 2005 (sent to me in an email so I don't have the original source handy):
"Even the most advanced mobile fuel cell stacks are still plagued by serious durability hurdles, according to DOE hydrogen program experts meeting in Washington recently. They say the inability to completely shut down -- and thus cool -- all the cells in a stack is taking a massive toll on life cycles, and is consequently threatening developers’ ability to meet even the most basic durability goals.
"Researchers and company officials, including industry leaders GM and Honda, came together earlier this month to present findings related to fuel cell durability. The problem they framed was fundamental: the length of time a mobile fuel cell can function optimally before failure is short. Given conditions of extreme temperatures and more demanding vehicle drive cycles, the prospects of malfunctions, i.e membrane ruptures and overall failures, increase dramatically with use, according to data presented by a broad array of DOE research partners at the December conference hosted by the Knowledge Foundation.
...
"PEM fuel cells being used by the automotive industry, according to data presented at the conference, are not exceeding 600 hours of operation before membrane failure. Most cannot exceed 400 hours of operation before membrane failure (a little more than one hour a day of driving over one year)."
Note that Honda's announcement above says nothing about COMMERCIAL production; rather, they will produce this next generation PROTOTYPE in 3-4 years.
Posted by: Shirley E | Jan 10, 2006 5:53:40 AM
We have a publicly-accessible hydrogen pump in Washington, DC, owned and operated by Royal Dutch Shell. Currently, only GM vehicles and the appropriate agencies can use it, but it's there, along with a snazzy information office.
I foresee this vehicle being released in California and here in Washington. I've personally seen 3 hydrogen vehicles in regular traffic, and have driven the GM minivan in traffic about a year ago.
Posted by: DC Riverguy | Jan 10, 2006 8:23:00 AM
California is an ideal site for testing hydrogen vehicles. See http://www.cafcp.org/fuel-vehl_map.html for the locations of existing and planned fueling stations. There are already 8 in the greater Los Angeles area with 11 more planned. San Francisco/Sacramento has several as well. Someone driving in this part of the country would have little trouble refueling his hydrogen car.
Posted by: Hal | Jan 10, 2006 10:35:45 AM
Fuel cell researchers from Nedstack in the Netherlands
www.nedstack.nl, reported that fuelcell production costs halved every 12 months.
And that by 2010 the production cost of a 50 KW fuel cell would math that of an ICE, for a small passenger car ICE.
So, its just logical that carmakers are gearing up to that typs of motor cars, whe they can afford the development.
Posted by: henk daalder | Jan 10, 2006 11:53:10 AM
On durability the fuel cell stacks have been incresasing in lifespan each generation even as they have been getting cheaper and more compact per power output.
The reason the timeline recently changed then changed again is some recent news on how far the new push for fuel cells has taken us.
In short just recently they have made fuel cell stacks that last and are much cheaper then before. The result is a scramble to get in the game ahead of the stacks meeting the final goals and the fuel cell car race taking off.
THAT is why all the hoopla has started snowballing. They HAD expected it to take 30 years but everything has changed.
Posted by: wintermane | Jan 10, 2006 3:40:24 PM
A zinc-air fuel cell system has already been sucessfully demonstrated in Germany and Sweden. It is more efficient than hydrogen, the "exhaust" is zinc oxide meaning zero emissions, the fuel is 4200 times denser at room temperatures than hydrogen, and does not require the use of platinum. The reason it is not being pursued is that it can't be made from oil.
Posted by: tom deplume | Jan 10, 2006 5:56:34 PM
I agree that batteries will eventually replace fuel cells, But I think we will see fuel cells as an in between step from ICE to pure battery powered. Mostly due to factors such as, the drive of industry behind hydrogen fuel cells; the bad reputation of pure EVs; and the cost of li-ion and up comming li-air batteries;
As for interchangable battery packs, that's highly unlikely, No one is going to convince every auto manufacturer to use the same battery pack. No one is going to want to exchange a 150Lb+ battery pack/set of batteries. Conveinient stores aren't going to stock 20+ types of battery packs just so they have one for your car; etc.
Batteries will need to become much cheaper; with higher capacity per weight, and achieve a ~6min recharge time before they are going to be able to take over. Sure you can charge overnight more slowly; but what if you have to drive from LA to New York?
Granted hydrogen via infrastructure is very inefficient for the reasons pointed out earlier; but it's energy density per weight is still better than batteries right now.
So, short term, hydrogen > batteries; long term batteries will win out I think.
Posted by: Ash | Jan 11, 2006 7:00:35 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Honda launch a car similar to this FCX as a premium luxury auto targeted at the environmentally consious high end consumer (Acura). As an option, buyers could select Honda's PV modules as part of a grid tied package with their home based H2 electrolysis unit. Regarding fuel cell reliability, Honda has had small fleet of fuel cell cars on the road in California for the better part of a year, the data should be out there. If any manufacturer can make this technology suceed, I'd bet on Honda.
Posted by: mark | Jan 11, 2006 7:39:42 PM
Bring it on.. Keep the progress coming.
YES!
Bpb
Posted by: Robert | Jan 11, 2006 9:29:58 PM
Realistically speaking, wouldn't the hydrogen refuelling stations just sell you sealed canisters in exchange for your empty ones? You know, like a barbecue cylinder. They woundn't trust people to manually refuel using hydrogen. thats madness.
The respective tanks would be like 10-15 litres weighing something like 25-30 kg. They can train some young guy to carry and install the replacement cylinders for the old ladies. :)
Posted by: Adrian | Jan 19, 2006 3:41:36 AM
The H2A costing models and case studies have been updated to version 1.0.10. These models have tremendous industry wide input and a very significant and stringent peer review process.
The new case studies can be found here:
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/h2a_prod_studies.html
Current Forecourt Hydrogen Production from Grid Electrolysis (1,500 kg/day) version 1.0.10
= $5.88/kg
Current Forecourt Hydrogen Production from Natural Gas (1,500 kg/day) version 1.0.10
= $3.49/kg
I'll utilize the forecourt models because it represents the easiest and most straight forward deployment model for a hydrogen economy. It would allow for easy deployment of the "lighthouse" approach proposed by Shell Hydrogen without having to make huge capital outlays. Each new H2 station can be setup individually utilizing existing natural gas and electricity capabilities without any need to create large centralized plants, new underground piping, or long distance transportation scenarios for hydrogen. If large capital investments are made in this infrastructure for centralized production then even better economics can come into play in the long run, but better economics are not necessary...they are just a bonus.
If we utilize Honda's best selling full size sedan, the Honda Accord, and Honda's newest innovative full size fuel cell sedan, the Honda FCX Concept, we can find out some pretty interesting things. The 2 vehicles have very similar dimensions...
Honda Accord V6
- 191.1 L / 57.3 H / 71.6 W
Honda FCX Concept
- 185.8 L / 56.3 H / 73.6 W
The 2 vehicles have very similar ranges...
Honda Accord V6
- 354 miles
Honda FCX Concept
- 350 miles
The 2 vehicles both have some pretty decent power on tap...
Honda Accord V6
- 244 hp
Honda FCX Concept
- 174 hp
The Honda FCX Concept does have less (but still adequate) horsepower, but that will be somewhat offset by quicker off the line acceleration from the near instantaneous peak torque available through the electric drive system versus the internal combustion engine which requires 5000 rpm before reaching peak torque. Additionally the low center of gravity on the Honda FCX Concept and the 4 wheel drive system with individually adjustable in wheel rear motors will provide maximum agility in handling. If this is not enough, then one can factor in the emission free nature of the Honda FCX Concept, the potential convenience of home refueling, the superior cabin volume, and the fact you can provide backup power for a small neighborhood.
Now lets utilize these vehicles and compare the fuel costs.
Fuel Price.............Tank Capacity..........Cost For 350(4) miles
$3.49/kg...............5kg..........................$17.45
$5.88/kg...............5kg..........................$29.40
$1.02/gallon..........17.1 gallons..............$17.44
$1.72/gallon..........17.1 gallons..............$29.41
$2.40/gallon..........17.1 gallons..............$41.04
$3.00/gallon..........17.1 gallons..............$51.30
The price of gas must be $1.02/gallon to be price competitive with hydrogen from H2A forecourt reformed natural gas.
The price of gas must be $1.72/gallon to be price competitive with hydrogen from H2A forecourt electrolysis.
With today's gas prices of $2.40 per gallon, gasoline is 135% more expensive than hydrogen from reformed natural gas and 40% more expensive than hydrogen from electrolysis.
Source for Honda FCX Concept tank size, range, and other information:
http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2005/fcx/index.html
http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2005/fcx/index02.html
Source for Honda Accord V6 tank size and range:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=21962
Posted by: H2O | Mar 4, 2006 1:40:03 AM
I would like to just tell the person who claimed that Hydrogen is much more expensive to process then gasoline. That is made up fiction if that person ever saw the history channel three hour documentary on hydrogen vehicles. He would know that to fill up a hydrogen running suv would cost 50 cents. It is very simple to process hydrogen with the right technology. Hydrogen is one of the most abundant gases in the world and that is fact and that is why it is so cheap and thats also fact. Just go to California to some of the few hyrdogen stations that they have their to fill up hydrogen cars. If you go you will see to fill up a hydrogen suv its 50 cents. So please to the person who said its more expensive to process hydrogen then gasoline please get your facts straight. Honda is the best car company hydrogen is the most environmentally friendly company. I hope they continue to do what they are doing and they will becuase they care. Another thing the reason for hydrogen cars being so expensive is because its a farely new technology being used in cars. Its a fact that when the first gasoline cars were made they were very expnsive until about 10 years after the first gasoline cars were made. Ten years after the first gasoline cars were made the cost came down because they found ways to make the parts in the car cheaper; that they did not know how to make cheaper ten years earlier. When the first gasoline cars were made the price was what we consider today one million dollars. After ten years of the first gasoline cars being made the price came down because of cheap advancements in how to make the parts cheaper. The same applies for hydrogen cars as is said on the history channel documentary on hydrogen vehicles. It is a fact that every year their are major advancements on making expensive parts in hydrogen cars cheaper every year. Usually some parts go down one hundread dollars to five hundread dollars every year for a handful of parts. Only a few parts of the hydrogen cars engines have been found new ways to be made cheaper but predictions from the best researchers predict that hydrogen car prices will come down to close prices of what gasoline cars cost today in 2025. In 2025 the engines will be much more cheaper to make because of huge advancements being made every year. Hydrogen gas is extremely cheap as I have already said and is one of the most abundant gas in world. Hydrogen cars cost will come down to middle class levels farely qucikly around 2025. I have studied about this closely on many documentaries, and CNN news reports, and many books about hydrogen vehicles and other environmentally friendly sources for vehicles, houses, and power.
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 13, 2006 11:19:26 AM
Its very useful information.
Posted by: Raviraj Takpire | Sep 12, 2006 4:41:13 AM
Hey can anybody plz explain me how the Honda FCX's engine works.
Posted by: Harshit | Sep 13, 2006 9:35:26 AM
H2O, Hydrogen in it's gaseous state is not very common on earth. Our atmosphere is composed of around 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen, and 1% other gasses, most of which is CO2 and water vapor. I don't see why Hydrogen gas would be common, since the main place for gasses on earth is in the atmosphere. Hydrogen itself is common, and is found in great quantities here on earth, but is chemicaly bonded to other elements(water is the big one). The seperation of hydrogen from those compounds is what makes collection difficult, and why its NOT dirt cheap to do so.
Posted by: HMC4life | Sep 26, 2006 4:51:31 PM
Hydrogen can be created using solar power , with zero greenhouse gas produced..This can be done @ home today PLUG POWER .inc
(Home fueling is supplied with each FCX.)
http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/station/
The fuel station can also create hydrogen from ones home NG line.
I'll take an FCX..no problem ..give the fuel cell 100 years of time on the planet (like the I.C.E has had) and lets see what's what baby...
Posted by: Cellors | Sep 28, 2006 8:47:19 AM
"Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 13, 2006 11:19:26 AM"
No you are not making any facts right, especially the "Hydrogen is one of the most abundant gas in world" part. Why is it wrong? Ask around, or try to do more useful research rather then reading those worthless business magazine or news reports that know almost nothing about science.
Posted by: rexis | Oct 30, 2006 5:16:29 PM
pls can i hav a look a pic of fcx's engine
if posible send it on my e-id
Posted by: arjit | Mar 25, 2007 9:07:38 AM
This has all the details on the engine. There's a link on the main page of a PDF with all the really technical stuff. http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/overview/
I don't really know enough about the technology to say much; however, I do know that hydrogen is not that abundant (as h2). Remember chemistry class! Hydrogen has only one valence electron so it bonds to almost anything (if I remember correctly. it's been a while).
I really like the idea of a speedy quiet car that doesn't run on gas though...
Posted by: katie-did | May 18, 2007 11:51:30 AM
PEMFCs use a platinum catalyst, which is very expensive, and despite billions of dollars of R&D efforts to reduce the amount required, it has proven impossible to cut the cost of such systems below about $7,000/kW. This is very unfortunate, because an electric car with a 100-horsepower motor needs about 75 kilowatts of electricity to make it go. At this price, the cost for just the fuel cell stack powering the car would be about half a million dollars. Actual costs for complete Ballard fuel cell engine systems have been well over a million dollars each. Then there’s still the rest of the car to pay for, although with the propulsion system costing this much, the additional cost would seem like a rounding error.
That, however, is not even the worst of it. Operating under road conditions in the real atmosphere, which contains such powerful catalyst poisons (chemicals that will reduce the effectiveness of the fuel cell) as sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, hydrogen sulfide, carbon monoxide, and ammonia that can permanently incapacitate a PEMFC, the operating lifetimes of fuel cell stacks have been shown to be less than 20 percent those of conventional diesel engines. As the trenchant industry analyst F. David Doty pointedly put it:
"We’re still waiting to see a fuel-cell vehicle driven from Miami to Maine via the Smoky Mountains in the winter—even one time, with a few stops and restarts in Maine. Then, we need to see one hold up to a forty-minute daily commute for more than two years (preferably at least fifteen years) with minimal maintenance, and come through a highway accident with less than $200,000 in damages.... When lifetime and maintenance are considered, one can argue that vehicle-qualified PEMFCs are currently 400 times more expensive than diesel engines."
It is true that the costs of PEMFC might conceivably be reduced over time due to technology improvements (although no real cost reduction has been achieved over the past decade despite several billion dollars in research investment). Moreover, if somehow the vehicles ever went into mass production, increased demand would drive the price of the platinum they contain, and thus the overall system cost, through the roof.
Furthermore, despite all their cost and hype, the fuel cell vehicles themselves offer no increase in efficiency relative to more conventional systems. (In this context, “efficiency” means the percentage of energy in the fuel that is spent on actual work rather than wasted.) While the theoretical efficiency of a hydrogen/oxygen fuel cell approaches 85 percent, the actual efficiency of real PEMFC stacks using hydrogen and air near maximum output (where they must operate, because fuel cell capacity is so expensive) is about 38 percent. If we then factor in an estimated efficiency for the power electronics of 92 percent and a real-world motor efficiency of 85 percent, we obtain an estimate of about 30 percent efficiency for a fuel-cell vehicle. Ordinary internal combustion engine cars can already match this, with systems offering up to 38 percent efficiencies well in sight. Conventional diesel engines operate today at about 42 percent efficiency. With variable valve timing, they should be able to attain 58 percent efficiency. That’s nearly twice the efficiency offered by a fuel cell vehicle, at 1/400th the cost.
Posted by: E-101 | Sep 22, 2007 7:08:36 PM
Researth
- buy a hydrogen generator for your home.$30,000.00 Energy Efficency = 50 percent.This means to me if i generate $1000.00 of solar and wind energy,i can convert that into $500.00 worth of hydrogen energy.
Posted by: steve | Nov 16, 2007 1:54:19 PM
