Any insight on the price differential between the models?

"Pricing to be announced later." So, unfortunately, no.

40 mpg combined isn't bad, but I'd gladly accept lower hp/kw for more fuel efficiency. 45 mpg should have been achieved.

I too wish they'd kept the overall power the same as the 4 cylinder with better gas mileage. What they've done is impressive but wish there were more options for those of us whose main priority is gas mileage.

Looks like the press release which I quoted over a month ago was accurate in every sense... Mike GR where are you?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/toyota_teaser_c.html

I can't believe people are still complaning about too much HP. If you want less HP, just buy a smaller car. You'll probably save some money in the process.

"If you want less HP, buy a smaller car"...

Unfortunately, the automakers don't seem to be providing better fuel economy with lower HP:

- the lower-powered subcompact Yaris gets slightly worse hwy fuel economy than the higher-powered Corolla

- the subcompact Chevy Aveo is shockingly thirsty for its size, and gets the same combined EPA rating as a larger Chev Cobalt sedan

- the upcoming subcompact Honda Fit gets similar mileage to the Civic compact (for this car I'm repeating what I've read elsewhere; I haven't actually seen the numbers)

The automakers have dropped the ball on efficiency with this latest wave of small cars.

If you want better fuel economy with lower HP, no sweat: buy a Prius.

"Unfortunately, the automakers don't seem to be providing better fuel economy with lower HP:"
Nissan Versa CVT is rated at 38mpg combined city and highway.

The European news show, Journal, tonight reported a stronger Daimler-Chrysler showing on rumors that they may be selling off their ailing Smart car division.

I really like the exterior styling of the Prius (and this new Camry) but I HATE the interior styling of the Prius. I would have though Toyota would have gone with tha V6 for the hybrid camry seeing as they already have the Prius but I'm glad they went with the four cylinder. I think they played it right with the Camry hybrid, if they lowered the hp to improve the mpg it might compete even more with the Prius. The added hp of the hybrid over the 4 cylinder (and non-funky styling) should attract new hybrid buyers...I'm thinking old people who LOVE the camry but don't want futuristic styling and a funky interior like the prius, and won't mind spending a little more coin (that they usually have) for a little more hp and a little more milage.

According to our green vehicle guide the combined rating for the Honda Jazz (Fit) and Civic are
Jazz GLi 5.7 l/100km (41 MPG)
Civic GLi 7.5 l/100km (31 MPG)
The Jazz is quite a bit better however we do not do the city/highway test anymore here. Australia now uses the standard combined test
Figures from http://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au

BTW the Honda Jazz is a great car. I was going to buy one at one stage and they drive well and have heaps of interior room.

Some things that can be easily overlooked. Toyota Camry Hybrid (TCH) is not in the same performance league as Jazz or Civic. I think 192 hp Camry hybrid will perfrom like the V6 3.5l brother. Here is how I derived to that conjecture.

Hybrid Synergy Drive delivers power with almost perfectly flat torque (as seen in Prius) curve. The maximum power seems lower due to no peaks and hence no valleys. Power delivery is instant and consistant. For example, Prius is 1.5 to 2 seconds faster than 06 Civic hybrid with the same 110 hp rated peak.

110 hp Prius actually performs like a 154 hp traditional car (comparing to Toyota Allion CVT). This makes effective power peak 1.4 times lower. So, 192 hp Camry hybrid would perform like 269 hp (192x1.4) traditional car. This puts it in the V6 3.5 league. In any case, TCH should definately be faster than 06' V6 3.3 while getting 40mpg!

If a TCH is trying to out accelerate a V6 it'll get less than 35mpg, BUT...I know what you mean :P

I'm a little slow on this one but I bet one of the main reasons why Toyota didn't make the Camry hybrid a V6 is because they don't want it competing with it's own Lexus ES330. Sure the cars would still have their differences but surely they wouldn't want a Camry with more horsepower than their Lexus ES330, and a Camry hybrid V6 would be getting close to the ES330's price tag. Maybe Toyota is saving the V6 hybrid for the ES330? Isn't the V6 in the ES330 pretty similar to the 3.3L found in the current Highlander Hybrid? Maybe the next generation Lexus ES/RX and next generation Highlander will get this same new 3.5L V6 with available hybrid powertrain....

A 4-cyl Camry Hybrid meets my requirements. Buyers who want more fuel economy can go for the Prius and those who wnat more power and ... can buy the Lexus Hybrid. A very wise marketing decision from Toyota. No wonder they will be in first place before year end.

It's foolish to compare the Prius to the hybrid Camry, they aren't the same market niche. Remove that irrelivant Prius nonsense and put the stats to the Accord hybrid up there. Much more reasonable comparison as far as 2 cars people will be looking to decide from.

Next you'll be comparing a Yugo to a Viper. :P

You obviously didn't read the earlier posts. They're not comparing the Prius and Camry, merely explaining that Toyota designed the TCH so that it wouldn't compete with the Pruis for market share.

Not so fast on the Accord vs. Camary. The Accord would be faster but the Camary has better MPG. The Accord for me is a less usable car however. Honda chose to put the batterys for the hybrid system behind the rear seat thus the seat will not fold. Toyota retained a 60/40 split folding seat. As to those asking for lower power and better MPG I say this is designed to be a family sedan that can do it all including crusing at highway speed with people and luggage, if the engine were smaller it might run into trouble on a long uphill.

"Toyota retained a 60/40 split folding seat."
No they didn't. The Camry hybrid has a fixed rear seat and slightly less trunk space.

"The Accord would be faster but the Camary has better MPG."

You sure about that? If Camry hybrid performs like a 269 hp traditional car (see above explanation), it will be faster than 255 hp Accord hybrid.

Camry hybrid will also get better mpg and cleaner (AT-PZEV vs. ULEV-II) for the environment. Camry hybrid would also qualify for more tax credit.

I think the Camry hybrid is a slam dunk. Its above the Prius in size and power and has great economy FOR ITS SIZE. I was worried Toyota would go more mild on the Camry hybrid like the Accord, I am glad they went for a FULL hybrid. The electric motor is larger then the Prius and sized well for the Camry. Unless its overpriced I see this being a big hit. Far more of a hit then the Accord Hybrid. I LOVE the 600 mile range. 40 mpg combined for this size is excellent.

My next car, when we move back to CA...

Justin please read below. It is Honda with the smaller trunk and no folding seat.

"In addition to its groundbreaking Hybrid Synergy Drive, Camry Hybrid comes with a long list of standard features. These include a tire-pressure monitoring system, halogen headlamps with automatic on/off, a premium JBL audio system with an auxiliary audio jack and Bluetooth® technology, cruise control, a tilt and telescopic steering wheel, dual-zone automatic climate control heating and air conditioning, an eight-way-adjustable power driver’s seat, a 60/40 split fold-down rear seat, 16-inch aluminum wheels, heated outside rear-view mirrors and much more."

Source http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/01/2007_toyota_cam_2.php

The HAH does 0-60 in what.. 7.5 secs? 7? The TCH is expected to be under 8 secs. I think they made a good choice with a 4 cylinder HSD Camry. It's for those who want V6 power but find the 3.5 litre excessive. It also falls nicely between the 158hp 4 and 268hp V6 thus minimising the power difference. It's also priced in between too. The Car Connection said that it won't be the most expensive Camry (so I take that to be priced below an XLE V6). I tested the HAH and found no power difference between that and the EX V6.

Sorry but the 192 hp is still less than 255hp whether it comes from electric or gasoline engine. The Accord hybrid is still quicker than the Camry hybrids.
That said, if I buy a hybrid I would want the 4 cyl camry over the accord. 192 is enough to beat the pants off a regular 4 cyl camry and thats all that really matters. V6 hybrid seems like waste. If you want to go fast just get the regular V6 and be happy.

"Sorry but the 192 hp is still less than 255hp whether it comes from electric or gasoline engine."

Then, explain why 04 Prius is faster (1.5 - 2 secs) than 06 Civic hybrid? They both have the same 110 peak horsepower and weight virtually the same.

The key is power delivery.
1) When you ask or need power, how fast does the drive train offer power?
2) How fast does it reach it's max power?
3) Does it get to the max at constant speed or have 'sling shot' effect?
4) Does it stay at peak power once you reach there?

1. HSD wins here since it has bigger battery power than Honda hybrid. Battery power comes at the speed of electricity.

2. HSD gas engine revs lower so it reaches it's peak power faster! Prius ICE redlines at 5,000 rpm. How about Civic hybrid? 6,700 rpm? How long does it take to reach that extra 1,700 rpm?

3. HSD delivers power at almost constant rate due to it's almost perfect torque curve. Honda's IMA tend to punch power in the mid-range rpm. As a bonus, gear shifting amplify those 'sling shot' effect.

4. HSD can remain at it's peak power due to the E-CVT. Where Civic hybrid (and Accord hybrid) has to shift gear and rev up again and again. 06 Civic is not come with mechanical CVT anymore.

Peace in,

I'm sorry but the Camry won't make up a 60hp deficit just because it has toyota badge on the trunk

Accord hybrid runs 0-60 in 7.18 seconds. I would like to see the Camdy hybrid do that.

usbseawolf, the '03-'05 HCH has CVTs and honda.com says the '06 HCH has a CVT as well. I agree somewhat to what you say about power delivery, but I don't think the TCH will be faster than the HAH. However I'm sure if Lexus made an ES350 hybrid it would destroy the HAH (assume it has cylinder deactivation too).

I can't believe that Toyota is still hanging on to NiMH batteries. Having the electric motor being able to put out 140.9 hp (105 kW) while feeding it with a wimpy battery that can only put out 42 hp is a joke. Toshiba makes the electric motors for Toyota and they also make this new fast charging lithium battery that will easily match the power output of the electric motor. A123 systems also makes a similar battery that can put out 4 hp/Kg. This means that a 35 kg battery can provide an extra 98.1 hp.

"I'm sorry but the Camry won't make up a 60hp deficit just because it has toyota badge on the trunk"

Toyota badge won't but maybe HSD badge will ;-) All I am saying is that when you see a HSD badge and the peak power number, do not underestimate it's performance compare to traditional cars.

I responded due to someone comparing TCH to Civic and Element. Now looking back, I don't expect TCH to outperform HAH because HAH has flatter torque curve than regular Accord V6. It is highly likely that TCH can be faster than the regular Accord V6 with 240 hp. 0-60 may be very close but TCH will fly in 30-50, 50-70 and top gear acceleration tests.

I can't believe that Toyota is still hanging on to NiMH batteries. Having the electric motor being able to put out 140.9 hp (105 kW) while feeding it with a wimpy battery that can only put out 42 hp is a joke.

Toyota and Panasonic EV spent a lot of money in developing HV battery. It makes sense that they want as much return as possible. I don't think 45 hp battery is not wimpy at all. Imagine an instant 45 hp that comes at the speed of electricity.

Remember the gas engine can provide the remaining 95 hp through generator. How often do you need 45 hp more? I think passing performance on the highway will be sweet.

I wonder how far and fast TCH can go on battery alone.

Hi all,

A comment re: the battery power rating. usbseawolf2000 touched on the answer, which is that the generator is the preferred source of the power, especially after a few seconds. Remember that the gasoline is the ultimate source of the energy (power delivered for a period of time). From the gasoline, to the engine, to the generator, to the motor and wheels is a better route than gasoline-engine-generator-battery-motor, that is, there are fewer conversions and hence fewer losses. The battery power rating should be set according to how much regen power it needs to accept, and how much "transient" propulsion power it needs to deliver, prior to the engine/generator combo coming on line. Cheers,