« Denmark To Build World’s Largest Biogas Plant | Main | Veridium Receives First Order for Corn Oil Recovery from Ethanol By-Product System »
Hymotion Unveils Plug-in Hybrid Kits for Toyota and Ford Hybrids
21 February 2006
 |
| The PHEV Escape model |
Hymotion, a Canadian company, introduced plug-in hybrid (PHEV) upgrade kits for the Toyota Prius and the Ford Escape and Mariner Hybrids at the Canadian International AutoShow this week. The Hymotion PHEV kits are based on a supplementary lithium-ion battery system that can be recharged by plugging it into a regular household electrical outlet.
Other systems are under development for the Lexus RX400h, Toyota Highlander Hybrid and Toyota Camry Hybrid, according to the company.
 |
| The Hymotion L5 PHEV kit in a Prius |
Unlike the approach taken by EDrive with its plug-in Prius system (earlier post)—replacing the original OEM battery pack with an Li-ion pack—Hymotion is supplementing the original NiMH battery system with its own Li-ion system that serves as the plug-in energy store.
The PHEV system recharges from the engine and regenerative braking during operation and from the power grid when the vehicle is parked and plugged in. Once the PHEV battery is depleted, the vehicle resumes normal operation using the factory battery. While the PHEV battery is in use, the OEM battery fuel gage indicates its status.
The addition of the li-ion battery pack does not change the basic operating strategy of the vehicles—all electric-operation is still limited to low speeds (e.g., below 34 mph for the Prius).
 |
| Plugging in the Prius |
Hymotion is initially offering the PHEV upgrade in two models: the 5kWh L5 for the Prius and the 12kWh L12 for the Ford hybrid SUVs. Hymotion is sourcing the Li-ion battery packs from an as-yet unnamed Asian manufacturer.
The company is targeting fleet buyers initially. In unit orders greater than 100, the L5 Prius kits will cost $9,500; orders of greater than 1,000 units would see the price drop to $6,500. Hymotion has not set pricing for the L12 for the Escape/Mariner, although the company notes that “since it’s 2.5 times the power of the Prius system, a very high price tag will be expected.”
Both systems are now available for fleet owners only because we still need more durability test miles before releasing it to the consumers.
—Anthony Wei, Hymotion business development
| Plug-in Hybrid Kits | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| System | Hymotion L5 | Hymotion L12 | EDrive |
| Vehicle | Toyota Prius | Ford Escape Hybrid Mercury Mariner Hybrid |
Toyota Prius |
| Battery type | Lithium-ion | Lithium-ion | Lithium-ion |
| Energy | 5 kWh | 12 kWh | 9 kWh |
| Charge time | 5.5 hrs / 4.0 hrs | 12 hrs /6 hrs | 9 hrs |
| Weight | 72.5 kg | 147.5 kg | 113.4 kg |
| Estimated battery range | 50 km (31 miles) | 80 km (50 miles) | 56 km (35 miles) |
| Estimated fuel economy (comb.) | 100 mpg | 60 mpg | 100–150 mpg |
| Price | $9,500 for orders >100 $6,500 for order >1,000 |
n/a | $10,000–$12,000 |
Hymotion had earlier partnered in the development of a hydrogen fuel-cell powered ice resurfacing machine (the eP-Ice Bear). Hymotion has its headquarters and research and development lab in Toronto, Canada. The company also has offices in Boston, USA, and five subcontractor facilities across North America.
February 21, 2006 in Hybrids, Plug-ins | Permalink | Comments (67) | TrackBack (1)
TrackBack
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/22062/4308706
Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Hymotion Unveils Plug-in Hybrid Kits for Toyota and Ford Hybrids:
» Hymotion - Products - PHEV, Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle from Seven Generational Ruminations
The hybrid electric vehicle has taken peoples interest in a big way. That's probably a good thing, though I don't quite understand it. Maybe I'm just being too much of a purist about electric vehicles. The current hybrid electric designs are still depe [Read More]
Tracked on Feb 23, 2006 7:45:59 AM
Comments
Are these li-ion batteries as safe as the EDrive system that uses Valence?
Posted by: paul | Feb 21, 2006 9:42:14 AM
What is it that makes these so expensive? What's the marginal cost of the unit (so as to not include marketing, fixed costs, research, etc)?
What are the expensive parts of the unit? Are there hopes for those parts to decrease in price?
Posted by: stomv | Feb 21, 2006 9:55:37 AM
The expensive part is the Li-ion battery.
They are very expensive.
And notice with the EDrive you get 80% more battery power for roughly the same price.
Posted by: paul | Feb 21, 2006 10:14:36 AM
Hmmm...something not adding up here.
This kit has a 5 kWh battery and has a battery range of 37 miles. According to their FAQ, The CalCars/EDrive System Prius+ has a 9 kWh battery...and a battery range of 35 miles.
http://www.edrivesystems.com/faq.html
Unless the two companies have different definitions of battery range.
Posted by: hamerhokie | Feb 21, 2006 10:22:21 AM
This plug-in battery pack will not get off the ground unless the price is lowered. Plain and simple, they are asking too much.
adrianakau@aol.com
Posted by: Adrian Akau | Feb 21, 2006 10:47:16 AM
One thing I notice. The hymotion system does not remove the factory battery pack. The Edrive system does.
Another thing that will change is the weight. Edrive is a changes the next weight of the car by around 80kg so that evens out the weight change to be inline with the hymotion system.
Posted by: paul | Feb 21, 2006 10:48:29 AM
Correction from the company on their original specs: 50km (31 miles) battery range for the Prius, not 60km.
Posted by: Mike | Feb 21, 2006 11:06:00 AM
This is good news. Competition drives down price and spurs innovation. I think the Valence batteries are probably far supperior from a stand point of safety, power, weight, and reliability. Valence's one weakness is the cost of the batteries. If Hymotion can position themselves as a lower cost provider that could be a competitive advantage. Also I like the optimism... orders of 1000 or more...funny stuff.
Posted by: paul | Feb 21, 2006 12:05:56 PM
Got some questions here
1)how long will the battery last? 100k miles?
and will the battery be dead very fast coz of deeply discharge all the time?
2)To fleets only(orders >100...)? that means most of us wouldn't be buying such products for now..
3)Price a bit too expensive? But I agree with Paul.. yes price will go down soon due to competition.
Maybe the auto industry needs another 3-5 years for the new li-ion to come.. More R&D leads to better li-ion and cheaper price~
Posted by: Martin | Feb 21, 2006 12:16:44 PM
How many fleets of 100+ hybrid vehicles exist in the world? I would be surprised if you could count the number on 2 hands...
Posted by: Thom | Feb 21, 2006 12:43:05 PM
What price? there were no prices in any of the info that I could open up...Richard
Posted by: Richard Burton | Feb 21, 2006 1:29:52 PM
oops, disregard that. only $9500,except in bulk orders...
Posted by: Richard Burton | Feb 21, 2006 1:31:23 PM
Interesting post. I just wonder why the Big 3 and the Imports can't (or won't) do this. I'd also like to see them push the maximum speed on the electric drive up to the 45-50 mph range. A lot of people do not use the interstate or 55mph roads in their daily commute. If that were possible, I'd only use gasoline every once in a awhile.
Posted by: cs1992 | Feb 21, 2006 1:51:19 PM
I'd so do it if
a) I had a prius (too bad they don't support the old gen prius too)
b) if they let us finance that battery, but at 6000 hmm...
Posted by: philmcneal | Feb 21, 2006 2:49:58 PM
Quibble:
"The addition of the li-ion battery pack does not change the basic operating strategy of the vehicles—all electric-operation is still limited to low speeds (e.g., below 34 mph for the Prius)."
Note that the Prius will do all-electric operation at higher speeds, given a full charge and/or a little downgrade.
(Going over the Cajon Pass it's kind of impressive how far the "green battery" will push you on the other side, out onto the "flats.")
Posted by: odograph | Feb 21, 2006 3:41:29 PM
On-Topic:
At several grand per, I personally consider these to be proof-of-concept. Maybe someday when my battery dies I'll weigh the costs of a Toyota replacement versus a 3rd party solution.
In the meantime, I'll buy more bicycles ;-) I've already got a mountain bike and a touring bike. I use them now to "displace" some Prius trips, and move my "personal MPG" past that of the plug-in.
Posted by: odograph | Feb 21, 2006 3:47:46 PM
Its clearly not as good as the Edrive but I still applaud them. They are pricing it fairly, I think the Edrive is still a little underpriced. Since neither are available this moment we will have to see what happens to the price once they are available to consumers.
Companies making products like this usually need to multiply the parts cost by 4x to make a profit. I can imagine the parts for this product cost about $2500. Those batteries are not cheap.
When the edrive is on the streets, I would be VERY interested in one.
Posted by: hampden wireless | Feb 21, 2006 8:30:14 PM
Here's what we posted at CalCars-News:
Hymotion, an Ontario, Canada company with offices in the US, has announced they're about two months away from offering conversions, initially for large fleet orders.
In the past month, we've seen the launch of the national Plug-In Partners Fleet Campaign and rapidly increasing support for PHEVs, further fueled by President Bush's Advanced Energy Initiative. Now this "independent commercialization" announcement, and any sales information we see in the coming months, add one more influence on car-makers to consider offering their own plug-in hybrids.
We'd make the following further comments.
* Lithium polymer cells are flat lithium-ion cells with the electrolyte embedded in polymer separators, which have some performance advantages, but have until now been more expensive than li-ion.
* Their system can be thought of as an "add-on" rather than a replacement. The new battery operates until it reaches a mostly-depleted level, then the car reverts to hybrid operation using the stock battery.
* It's a source of considerable satisfaction to us that CalCars can leave it to Hymotion and EDrive Systems (who until now were the only ones publicly working on Prius conversions), to differentiate themselves both publicly and to prospective customers, and to back up their performance expectations.
Posted by: Felix Kramer | Feb 21, 2006 9:26:12 PM
as odograph said, the prius can go above 34 mph on electric only. with very gradual acceleration, i have taken my mom's first-gen just above 45 mph (not any higher due to the speed limit, prolly could have gone faster).
Posted by: lensovet | Feb 21, 2006 9:46:40 PM
I can't believe there's so much concern about the prices.
This is a real watershed moment for the automotive industry. Don't devalue it over a few thousand dollars.
Good on you USA for actually coming up with two competitors so soon for this very exciting concept.
There are many people on this planet who’ve spent much more on their vehicles. Anything under $15,000 to turn a Prius into a potentially near-zero emission vehicle is a bargain. Particularly at such an early stage in this technology’s development.
Posted by: Shaun Williams | Feb 22, 2006 2:25:15 AM
For $15,000 you can go down to TerraPass and make a "balancing investment" that puts 300 cars into a near-zero emisson category. (or 30 cars for 10 years)
http://www.terrapass.com/
At some point it really does become a question of what you want to achieve. If you love the plug-in, buy it! If you are looking for a cost-effective way to offset the pollution impacts of your lifestyle ... bicycles and/or terrapass are pretty cheap.
Posted by: odograph | Feb 22, 2006 8:09:40 AM
Terrapass sounds good but doesn't help us get off of foriegn oil like if we were all using plug-in hybrids.
Posted by: paul | Feb 22, 2006 8:35:54 AM
For $0 I could walk to work and and live in a cave. That wasn't my point.
The RELATIVE price of being able to employ this concept is a bargain and should be encouraged at this early stage.
Posted by: Shaun Williams | Feb 22, 2006 12:37:04 PM
Seriously guys, there are 220+ million cars on the roads in America. Is the first priority to spend $6.5-12K to convert the best of the current fleet, to be a little better?
I'm sure you've seen the "gallons saved" calculations, and the decreasing return on investment as you move from a 10 to 20 mpg improvment, to a 20 to 30 mpg improvement, ... and you are way out looking at a 50 mpg to 100 mpg improvement?
To recap, given 12K miles annual driving, the 10 to 20 improvement saves 600 gallons on that one vehicle. Moving from 50 to 100 mpg saves 120 gallons.
... maybe we should get folks in guzzlers into simple small cars (or current generation hybrids) as a top priority.
(and suggest terrapasses to anyone who is not in the cash position to make the move.)
Posted by: odograph | Feb 22, 2006 6:06:57 PM
Terrapass is a for profit company that has saleries and other financial drag. If you take the $ you would send to terrapass and buy $3 compact flourecent bulbs and give them free to people using regular bulbs you have offset a whole lot of carbon and helped some of your local freinds save $ on thier electric bill. Of course make sure as many of your bulbs are flourecent as you can tolerate.
Posted by: Hampden Wireless | Feb 22, 2006 6:21:07 PM
Good point odo, especially since roughly half the 'cars' sold are in fact trucks that get at best between 13 and 18 mpg.
So maybe what we need to do is spend money to drive a campaign to show Joe Sixpack that a 6,500 lb. 4X4 is a significant part of the problem. In fact if those drivers went twice as far per gallon as they do today, that'd be roughly a national gas savings of 25% right there.
Too bad both Big Oil and our political leaders have so much $ invested in petroleum that they'd spend billions smearing such an effort every step of the way.
Posted by: fred | Feb 22, 2006 6:45:39 PM
Your way off track odograph.
This is about encouraging transition technology that weans us of fossil fuels so that eventually, as battery technology improves (due to having an healthy market) we can drive "mostly electric" hybrids.
Then we have a real choice on what energy we consume (ie green electricity) how can you ever achieve that by driving smaller ICEs?
Given a chance, PHEVs are a real chance to be THE "disruptive technology" that turns the automotive industry on its head.
I like the idea of buying trees (I'm a Greenfleet subscriber) but we need to kick the carbon addiction ASAP.
Posted by: Shaun Williams | Feb 23, 2006 12:32:33 AM
It is all about the overall effort.
terrapass or cfls are short term things you can do now.
plug-ins are a long term technology that the potential to a major impact.
Both a short term and long term are necessary to be successful.
Posted by: paul | Feb 23, 2006 4:20:41 AM
If W actually was sincere about changing America's current course of oil addiction, he'd promote the obvious things like conservation every place possible, slow down and drive more sensibly, carpool, telecommute, proper tire inflation, avoid excessive idling, turn down the heat, turn up the AC, turn off everything not currently in use, etc.
That would make not only a HUGE dent, but it would polarize Americans to innovate things that we aren't seeing now. Heck, we might even create a whole American industry that exports energy technology to 3rd-world nations (as a much more responsible form of aid) and to big consumers like China and India where we currently have an enormous trade imbalance. We might even stop funding terrorist organisations with $Billions.
But then, W's big oil buddies wouldn't be happy, would they? Elmer Fudd might take him on a quail hunting trip.
Posted by: fred | Feb 23, 2006 4:59:04 AM
You know Shaun, I actually read Clayton Christensen's book on "disruptive technologies" (and James Utterback's boader book on the "dynamics of innovation").
Don't you remember that in those books the great danger is building a "value network" around a high end product, one which selects smaller portions of an existing market? You don't want to chase a niche market into a smaller niche.
These plug in hybrids are championed by a minority of hybrid owners, who think reinveting 50% of their car's value, to save a couple hundred gallons of gas a year, is reasonable.
Sure ... take a chance, but IMO the "disruptive technology" is more likely to come from the low end, building from a strange market that no one takes seriously now, but will become something else.
Examples:
electric scooters becoming high performance electric motorbikes
golf carts becoming viable neighborhood vehicles.
Posted by: odograph | Feb 23, 2006 8:37:14 AM
(My intuition is that the "better batteries" that everyone hopes for will make it possible to build a plug-in hybrid, or an electric Ducati ... and I'll take the electric Ducati)
Posted by: odograph | Feb 23, 2006 8:39:35 AM
This upgrade isn't practical right now, but that's not important.
The important thing for the moment is hybrizing the whole fleet, just as Toyota has said they plan to do, and doubling fuel efficiency at a reasonable cost.
The importance of battery upgrades is for the future, when batteries get much cheaper, and gas gets suddenly much more expensive. At that point you want to be able to upgrade your fleet very quickly instead of waiting for your inventory to turn over.
Posted by: Nick | Feb 23, 2006 9:13:51 AM
That sounds very reasonable Nick, especially if you say "if and when" batteries get much cheaper. ;-)
Posted by: odograph | Feb 23, 2006 9:36:45 AM
My prediction...
10 years from now we will all be driving something very different from the gasoline engines the majority drive today. Either it be an electic car, an E80 engine, hydrogen, Biodiesel, or a plug in hybrid. I believe the plug-in hybrid to thoeretically be a front runner because it requires 0 change in infastructure. Where as ethanol, hydrogen, require massive $$$ to create the distribution network.
Posted by: paul | Feb 23, 2006 11:31:09 AM
My fearless prediction ...
10 years from now US gasoline prices will be where Europe's are today (good historical precedent for this). Most new cars sold will be like the ones in Europe today (more hybrids, but similar sizes). Enough wealthy and die-hard people will hold out, that half the fleet will look like what we have today.
Pedestrians, bicyclists, folks on gas or electric scooters or in neighborhood electric vehicles, will be somewhat common .. but they will consititute no more than 10% of the "traffic" on the road.
Posted by: odograph | Feb 23, 2006 11:51:46 AM
I like this game ...
In a decades time; 50% of vehicles manufactured by developed nations will be hybrids, 10% of those will be plug-in.
China will lead the world in numbers of vehicles manufactured but most will be cheap ICE or electric-only vehicles.
People world wide will be lazier and fatter and drive more.
At last, I'll have a decent made-in-China battery pack in my electric car.
Posted by: Shaun Williams | Feb 23, 2006 1:00:18 PM
Odograph,
Have you been following what's happening with batteries lately? There's been an explosion of R & D, and a really diverse array of new technologies, at least some of which will succeed at making batteries much cheaper and more effective in every way.
It's really astonishing. I know new technologies like this are like restaurants (90% fail), but some of these things are very mature, and there's a real depth of competition right behind them. The best example is A123, which is first out of the gate with nano-lithium batteries. Black & Decker/Dewalt has committed to them with 36-volt batteries which are expected to take the professional tool market by storm: they'll be MORE powerful than their corded equivalents, and last twice as long as existing portable power tools.
Eestor appears to be right behind them, with an ultracapacitor which costs $40/Kwhr, and stores more kwhr/lb than lithium-ion! Changes everything..
Posted by: Nick | Feb 23, 2006 2:02:19 PM
I'm reading "Fooled by Randomness" right now. Very good book. I won't post too much of the text, but page 59 has an extensive bit on the unpredictablity of new tech, and the ration of press releases to successes:
"[looking backwards] we only see and count the winners, to the exclusion of the losers (it is like saying that actors and writers are rich, ignoring the fact that actors are largely waiters - and lucky to be ones, for the less comely writers ususally serve French fries at McDonalds). Losers? The Saturday newspaper lists dozens of new patents that can revolutionize our lives. People tend to infer that because some inventions have revolutionized our lives that new inventions are good to endorse and we should favor the new over the old. I hold the opposite view. The opportunity cost of missing a 'new new thing' like the airplane and the automobile is miniscule compared to the toxicity of all the garbage one has to go through to get to the jewels (assuming these have brought some improvement to our lives, which I frequently doubt)."
That's a good rant ;-). I feel a little bit that way, but don't always feel upset about it. I mean, why worry when all I have to do is read of inventions with mild interest ... and wait for things to appear in the stores before getting truly excited.
Posted by: odograph | Feb 23, 2006 2:33:59 PM
BTW, I've actually written myself about this backwards-looking filtering effect in arguments with true believers in things like hydrogen cars. They're sure things will work ... because we've had so much success in the past.
It's always nice to buy a book which confirms your thinking ;-)
Posted by: odograph | Feb 23, 2006 2:36:59 PM
harumph.
Odograph, I know what you mean, but I really have taken that into account. For instance, I have little faith in hydrogen, and I think thin-film solar is going to grow rather more slowly in the short term than it's most breathless advocates.
One has to look at the details, rather than rely on general optimism or pessimism. You have to look at the track record of the industry, the individual companies and their investors, and so on.
Have you looked at the two things I mentioned?
Posted by: Nick | Feb 23, 2006 3:13:49 PM
I've been seeing "nano" and spins on batteries as well as things on ultra-capaciters, and since I'm on the feeds of a variety of green, peak energy, and sustainability blogs, I've probably been skimming the news. I'm sure I've seen news of both here at GCC.
But I'm telling the truth when I say that I choose to be patient. If I don't choose to be an invester (and I don't), then I can treat it as happy news when something makes it to market.
I can be cautiously optimistic without counting any chickens at this point in time ;-)
Posted by: odograph | Feb 23, 2006 3:30:14 PM
Oh, maybe I should say that I'd prefer to see our national strategy a little more "bird in the hand" and less "bird in the bush." The current focus on new technology is dangerious, because new technology does not always come when you call it.
Posted by: odograph | Feb 23, 2006 3:32:09 PM
I thought that's what we were discussing here. New technology that HAS already come but some consider the price a bit high.
I respect any decision not to invest in it but why would you discourage others by attempting to justify your own personal position. The technology won't come if people don't support it. I'm afraid this doesn't fit with being "cautiously optimistic".
Posted by: Shaun Williams | Feb 23, 2006 7:09:38 PM
Way up at top I said:
"At several grand per, I personally consider these to be proof-of-concept. Maybe someday when my battery dies I'll weigh the costs of a Toyota replacement versus a 3rd party solution."
... I don't even think the makers of Hymotion/EDrive think they have created a high-volume solution.
As far as why I spoke up later ... that bit about "Anything under $15,000 to turn a Prius into a potentially near-zero emission vehicle is a bargain." was too much for me to pass up.
Geez louise ... a "bargain."
Posted by: odograph | Feb 23, 2006 8:04:20 PM
I've got a Prius II (2005) with a Terrapass on it. I've been WAITING for these lithium batteries to come out. I seriously would go out and buy one tomorrow (Probably EDrive). I like the idea of almost all-electric driving. I personally can't stand it when the Prius ICE kicks in. I sometimes drive around the parking lot the long way when I get to work, just because I love the feel of all-electric.
Call me crazy. But people like me will finance the "price-drops" everyone else is waiting for. Just like the dot-com investors who lost all that money unwittingly financed the buildout of the internet.
I paid $1,300 for a Sony Betamax in 1977. I paid $600 for a CD player in 1983. I paid $800 in 1991 for a 2MB, that's right, 2MB memory card. As an early adopter my whole life, I'm probably poorer than some, but I have the satisfaction of sitting back and knowing that I helped a lot of key technologies get off the ground, by voting with my dollars.
It's not about gas mileage. I just traded in a very nice (paid for) 2001 Chrysler Sebring convertible last June on my Prius. The $500 a month I pay on the Prius (for SIX YEARS) would have bought plenty of gas to keep the Sebring happy even if I drove from L.A. to Vegas and back every weekend. I don't care. And though I loved it, I don't miss the convertible.
I want an electric car, and I want it NOW.
Posted by: BlackSun | Feb 23, 2006 9:16:02 PM
Actually, a chance to participate in the seeds of a technology solution that has the best real chance today of dramatically reducing our negative impact on the planet is worth a lot more than $15,000, it's priceless.
You're not crazy BalckSun, it's called "vision".
Posted by: Shaun Williams | Feb 24, 2006 12:07:44 AM
"Good on you USA"
Hymotion is Canadian.
Posted by: Michael Slavitch | Feb 24, 2006 8:06:06 AM
I seem to recall the days when a graphical workstation cost $25K and required a team of engineers to maintain it, and hyperlinking was done by this nasty thing called SGML. And that was in 1988 dollars.
Digital imaging systems (the precursor of 'cameras') cost thousands of dollars and cellphones were briefcased-sized toys for the rich.
$10K for early adopter onsey-twosy stuff, not in volume, not cost reduced, not subject to volume discounting using the supply chain used by Dell?
Holy crap! That's cheap! And that's retail with margin!
Building something like a Prius that way would cost $150K!
We're five years away from it costing as much as people already pay for flip-down DVD players and leather seats.
Quit carping.
Posted by: Michael Slavitch | Feb 24, 2006 8:12:51 AM
Odograph,
I think maybe you're confusing two issues.
I think that you may be thinking in particular about hydrogen. You're very skeptical about it, and I think you're right to be so. I think that much of what's going on with hydrogen has nothing to do with excessive optimism. Rather, I think that we're dealing with resistance to change by the car and oil industries, combined with excessive pessimism.
Sadly, I think that much of the push for hydrogen really is a desire to distract people with long-term goals, while keeping on with the usual. For the domestic car industry, it's a preference for the truck-based products which have saved them. Hydrogen is good for the oil & gas industry, as it's especially efficient when using reformed natural gas, and not at all efficient at storing electricity. A big investment in hydrogen is only good for oil & gas. I say "sadly" because I hate to attribute such near-conspiracy motives to people, but the evidence seems to support it.
Secondly, GM got burned badly by the EV-1. I don't think they ever really had their hearts in it, and I think they really sabotaged it themselves to a great extent, but within the company they see themselves as being victimized by an attempt to rely on battery technology, and there is an institutional reluctance to embrace it that goes beyond the normal resistance to change. Hence their preference for hydrogen, which is not-battery, and also feels kind of like gasoline in proposed distribution and use.
What do you think?
Posted by: Nick | Feb 24, 2006 8:40:45 AM
I think you have to picture me as a relaxed person. I'm semi-retired and plan on going on a bike ride to the post office and library a little later.
I watch technology evolve, and watch prices. I try to buy in after economies of scale knock down prices. I have a kill-a-watt monitor. I've halved my electric use. I have a Prius. I've halved my gasoline use. I'm having a little trouble halving my natural gas use ... but I've discovered I can be comfortable in a sweatshirt in a 55-65F house.
My motivation is half environmental and half frugal.
I'll happily buy anything that works out.
If I'm just talkin' (or typing) I could say that I do consider "conventional" electric cars and scooters to be the best bet for post-gasoline transportation ... but really I have this relaxed attitude that I don't need to sweat which technology comes after gasoline. I don't have to be right.
... continuing to ramble, I think that walkable (and bikeable) cities are a great opportunity too, and it may even be that walking a couple blocks to the office beats driving high priced gas/electric cars in the future. For some folks.
Posted by: odograph | Feb 24, 2006 9:00:12 AM
I am in agreement with those who are willing to invest in future innovations such as this. Do I enjoy paying a premium for something that we all know or think major corporations should have jumped on years ago - of course not. But I won't let that stop me from supporting those innovators who are willing to invest in these new technologies. I too look forward to the day when PHEV's will be available and priced for the general consumer - but until then, we'll have to make do with whatever products we can, and hope that everyone else comes to their senses. Kudo's to Hymotion and Edrive for pioneering the efforts - now let's get these products to market!
Posted by: KenR | Feb 24, 2006 9:47:17 AM
So Hymotion can do $6,500 for 1000, $9,500 for 100 or more, and probably similar to the $10K-$12K of EDrive for an order of a single vehicle. They both go nearly the same distance at 31 vs 35miles, Hymotion is rated 5kWh and 40.9kg lighter than the EDrive at 9kWh, 1.8 times the energy at 1.56 times the weight.
While the battery type could make up the specific energy differance of 69Wh/kg versus 89Wh/kg the range discrepency is still odd. This could be due the SOC range used, though one would suspect that most of the capacity would be utilized as that's one of the things Lithium does well. Perhaps EDrive is being conservative on cycle depth, DOD, as I believe there is no stock battery to fall back on for HEV opperation in their case, while Hymotion could effectively discharge the additional Li pack till it fell off the end of it's abrupt discharge curve at 100% DOD, or 0% SOC.
Anyway, some Electric Conversion guys I know have mentioned that they think a simple "Hybrid battery", as it's known in the BEV world, type setup where a larger battery feeds the stock one would work, which Hymotion. seems to have confirmed. The PriusPlus or EDrive method still has the advantage of being able to replacing the stock NiMH battery with a far lighter Lithium flavored one!
Posted by: D0li0 | Feb 25, 2006 12:10:27 AM
Opps, forgot to mention, notice the trend towards the magical $500/kWh at 1000 units on the Hymotion battert packs, figure $1500 for the other hardware... This is about the cost of current mass production small form Li cells, who knows what happens to the cost once you ramp vehicle scale production into the millions? $250/kWh? $100/kWh? Keep in mind that something like the tzero with 6800 18650 cells is about 1000 laptops worth, so each PHEV might represent 200 laptops, 1000 cars = 200,000 laptops... Anyway, Carry on...
Posted by: D0li0 | Feb 25, 2006 12:17:29 AM
I wonder if HyMotion would offer the lower price if someone could aggregate and guarantee 1000 orders from municipal fleets, individuals, and companies. That would be $6,500,000 (!) in orders.
The Tango folks figured out a deposit system to see where market demand is in order to reserve cars produced at various costs.
I what HyMotion is doing is very important, and as someone who has spent thousands on computers over the last 15 years that are now doorstops with less computing power than my flip-phone, I think $10,000 to convert your car into a near electric will be very attractive to some early adopters who want to take a stand and help jumpstart (so to speak) the market.
Think of it this way: an Acura TL (25mpg) with lots of nice features and middling mpg = $35,000. A loaded Prius (100mpg) with HyMotion would be about the same. Which one is faster? No contest. Which one is more comfortable and economical? You choose.
Posted by: Lance Funston | Feb 25, 2006 11:04:42 AM
This is the longest post I have ever seen on GCC.
I like it.
Posted by: paul | Feb 25, 2006 1:15:19 PM
Me too
Posted by: dougning | Feb 26, 2006 5:44:18 AM
IMHO it is prudent to be stingy with usage and generous with early adoption of promising revolutionary technology. HEV and soon PHEV are here to stay, thanks to those who bought it first. Sadly so is the HUMMER(B50? or E85 or Hybrid diesel)-no thanks Arnold! Expect a giant price drop in 2006 in Li batteries and plan accordingly. Early adoption is the only way to have a say on who will do what next. Those of who can should! Ride your bicycle, walk to the market, and pay the $$$ to be at the frontier of PHEV. This in no way contradicts the emergence of "disruptive technologies" hypothesis mentioned above. If anything it creates the roadmap to move the circus on!
Posted by: sae | Feb 26, 2006 6:27:32 AM
Update on my former post. I contacted Hymotion to see what the outlook was for making this great new product available to the general public (all of us craving for such technology). Their Director of Business Development was kind enough to respond - and stated that they felt that this product "should" become available in the next year or two - at about $5,000 per install. The biggest hold-back seems to be durability testing that they want to do with fleet and government users initially.
Posted by: KenR | Feb 27, 2006 9:30:16 AM
Thank you KenR for the information. It seems that PHEVs may be the best short to mid-term solution to break our "fossil oil addiction' and reduce GHGs. A conversion price of $5,000 per unit would be very acceptable to many of us. Cost recovery will depend on the relative price of gas-diesel and ethanol-electricity. If we assume that the North American price for fossil fuels will be closer to the Euroean price and that electricity could remain close to current price, the conversion cost could be recovered in less than 5 years in most cases. With the price of batteries going down and performance going up we should not hesitate to support PHEVs because they seem to be the best solution for the next 10+ years.
Posted by: Harvey D | Feb 27, 2006 5:00:27 PM
how safe are the e-drive and hymotion systems in a collision?
Posted by: wes arnott | Feb 28, 2006 12:00:48 PM
I'm enjoying reading this thread, thanks.
A concern: While I agree that those that can, should be support EDrive and Hymotion I worry about their long term viability. The
decision by Toyota to offer PHEVs themselves seems pretty small realative to their gamble thus far. Overnight EDrive and Hymotion become redundant. Of course, this is *exactly* what Calcars.org is aiming at but it seems rough on the EDrive and Hymotion folks. And the rich irony is that more support for EDRive and Hymotion only hastens their doom (as does no support of course). Are there examples of goodwill from corporations like Toyota towards little companies that demonstate to them a market, to help them survive?
Finally, if pluggable cars in reverse can power houses, living off grid becomes easier and one of your disruptive consequences maybe flight from cities missing suburbs altogether and cutting towards wilderness, burning refined fossil fuels for electricity.
I pray solar tech cheapens towards mass consumption prices as fast or faster than PHEVS. Now that's eheaven.
Posted by: TimW | Feb 28, 2006 5:09:08 PM
They have already announted that they think they can get the cost to $5,000 in a year. What fleet owner in their right mind would buy them now?
I agree the dark shadow here is Toyota. As soon as it's clear they are coming into this market, these small guys are toast. Unless, Toyota will just do new cars, in which case maybe there's an upgrade market for awhile. But then, mass acceptance requires confidence, warranties, and companies that will be in the business for the long term future.
On the other hand, despite the Dell's of the world, there is still a bit of a small guy PC market out there. But cars may be different. And, I might add, dangerous.
Weird, that. My "sweet spot" was $5,000 and they say they may meet it.
Posted by: t | Mar 4, 2006 5:16:52 PM
Uumm...Duh? It's E85 not E80 E85!
Posted by: Carsten | Mar 30, 2006 2:18:50 PM
There is something missing here. These are just batteries we are charging. With the correct, available AC to DC voltage converter, and maybe a voltage step device, anyone can charge any battery off of either 110 or 220 volts AC that we have in our houses.
I assume the Escape Hybrid battery pack ends up joining several batteries in series to operate at a higher than 220 volt DC level. It still can be done. We only need to know how the engine charges the same battery to figure out how to make a cheap battery charger.
The EDrive and Hymotion kits are fine, professional packages for fleet operators, but there has to be a huge aftermarket low budget option for current HEV owners.
Get back to me by email if you have any insights, suggestions, recommendations.
Posted by: Richard Meckstroth | Apr 21, 2006 2:39:30 PM
www.terrapass.com
Oh, that's so cute. A business specifically designed to collect guilt money. What kind of sucker would fall for this? There's not a single listing on there of where the money goes. That's usually the first clue. You're buying Euro-style paper shuffling. That's it.
The thing that could do some serious good is the development of aftermarket hybridization/ flexfuelization/ PHEV kits for regular vehicles. You know, for those who can't shell out the premium for a new car. Also, boosting production so that those who want to, can buy a hybrid would be great too.
Posted by: Scott | Jun 12, 2006 9:03:32 AM
exposure and risk of hybrid electric
vehicle
Posted by: jenelyn | Oct 3, 2007 11:06:40 PM
Has anyone considered using a plug-in hybrid with the new flexible solar panels that could be installed on the automobile roof, hood, and/or trunk lid. For example, the Global Solar’s SUNLINQ with PowerFLEX technology (http://www.aeesolar.com/catPDFs/low/4-Solar_Power-low.pdf) is a flexible, fold-able and durable solar product that produces enough power to charge a lithium-ion battery system. Each 25 Watt panel is 25 X 41" and is only .03" thick. You should be able to get at least 4 panels installed on almost any automobile - producing at least 100 watts of charge. Cost would be around $1200 for 4 panels.
Posted by: Everett Crsiar | Nov 18, 2007 11:28:01 PM
