A nine mile all electric range seems a little small considering that an EDrive upgrade on the existing Prius will give up to 30 miles of pure EV range. Why such a small range for a future full production car ?

"is being designed with a fuel consumption target of 94 miles per gallon (US), or 2.5 liters per kilometer."

Am I reading this incorrectly? ...do they mean 25 kilometers per liter?

it is probably a typo, 2.5 liters per 100 kilometers

My editing mistake: the numbers should be 40 kilometers/liter, or 2.5 l/100km. Sorry about that!

I think that they mean 2.5 L/ 100 km. That's the way the Canadians usually report their mileage.

Marcus, I think it's "only" 9 miles in ev mode BECAUSE it's a production car. Costs have to be kept lower, they can't add $10k to the price of the car. Also they'll want to keep their 8-10yr battery warranty. What kind of warranty do you get on the batteries used in the EDrive upgrade?

maybe that is how they will achieve 94mpg, by making an assumption about the expected usage of the vehicle, then counting the electricity as free. if all of your trips are low speed and less than 9 miles, you'll have infinite miles per gallon.

this is valid and true, of course.

i don't expect they'll make a major improvement in highway efficiency. their coefficient of drag can't be reduced much, they already use low rolling resistance narrow tires, and atkins cycle engine.

so, for people in wide open spaces, the next gen prius should have about the same efficiency as the current on. city-folk stuck in traffic will be better off, though

Thanks Eric for your comments

Well if Mitsubish and Subaru really start selling pure EVs that have a range of around 100 miles I think I would go for that rather than the next Prius. Of course its also going to depend on how much gasoline costs in 2008 I suppose. Interesting times....

Be careful that Toyota engineers are probably using Japanese 10-15 mode figures for fuel economy, which leads to much better results : for instance the current Prius versions sold in Japan achieve from 2.8 to 3.0 L/100km depending on the version (different tyres available there) according to this method. So 2.5 L/100km sounds possible to me, but needs to be translated in the real world. Maybe 3.5 L/100km...

Aha! I knew it.

Excellent news, roll-on the EV paradigm shift...

Signed,
A PHEV "zealot".

(Actually, I'm an EV zealot but PHEVs are the crucial transition technology.)

Interesting times indeed.There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come.Im sure many of us took the plug in partners survey which asked would you buy a plug in if it were availlable.The message is getting out to automakers and politicians.The Bush energy bill has energized this push.It was delayed for four years by dems.Partisan politics by both sides will weaken us and empower our enemies.Dems and repubs now have a bill{vehicle fuels choice and security}Go to www.govtrack.us and you can track energy legislation.Lefty loonies and rightwingnuts act together and call your reps and insist they work together on this legislation.Passage of this would accelerate the adoption of the tech we read about here.Your voice is your most powerful weapon in this fight.We can honor the men in the battlefield by solving the energy dependence that put them there.Energy independence will be cleaner and someday actually clean.There will be a number of steps to get there.Lets not squabble about every step rather lets begin the journey.

This is good, but still frustrating in the baby-step mentality that auto manufactures always manifest. Hopefully, ultra-capacitor tech will rise to the occasion fast enough to give us true EV options that not only have good range, but 6 minute charge-up time. Toyota better keep its eye on this as it would kill the Prius/Hybrid sales dead. Toyota would be smart in making their battery packs easily swappable to accommodate advances in battery technology. Time for the car to become an appliance.

The Prius stopped useing low rolling resistance tires as of the '04 model year. They use Goodyear integrity tires to this day..........

One needs to adjust those mileage figures to account for the difference between the Japanese cycle and the EPA cycle. The Japanese cycle makes the EPA cycle seem conservative. If one does the adjustment, the expected combined mileage would be about 63 mpg.

I would hope for at least 20 miles electric to accomodate the majority of commuters. Or, why not provide different mileage capabilities as options?

I love that Toyota will have a car, Prius, that stays on the leading edge. We need to keep ratcheting that up so that other automakers have something to shoot for. This, at least, puts a little fun factor in fighting global warming and oil dependence.

It would be progress if they began to ship a Prius to the United States that would have any all-electric miles!

The Prius in Europe and Japan already have such a feature. It was removed by Toyota for North American sales.

I doubt whether the concept vehicle appearing at the dream house was the first plug-in devised by Toyota engineers. It would be interesting to know how long ago they began testing a plug-in approach.

I can only guess that the nine mile range is instituted to keep costs low. My best guess is that Toyota has found a way to reduce the total costs of he hybrid components from $4000 to $2000. If Toyota then adds an extra 2K worth of batteries, this would yield the all electric range of nine miles, and keep the overall cost of the Prius approximately the same as the 2006 model. Keep in minds that the number of consumers who are willing to shell out 35K is a let less then those willing to shell out 25K.

Just my best guess,
Cosmo

Actually I find a factory plug in 9 mile range GREAT. It will be a game changer if it gets here. Many could buy the car and cut thier gas use down 75% or more over a REGULAR un plugged prius. Yes, not everyone has many trips under 9 miles but many people do.

The highway mpg on the Prius could go up with a gearset that would allow the gas engine to turn off over 45mph. Going downhill on the highway the gas engine does not shut down, so that could be improved.

Someone mentioned that they didn't think the highway fuel economy would improve. One proven technology that Toyota and Honda aren't using yet on their hybrids is gasoline direct injection. So far it's used mainly to increase both power and fuel economy, but if you designed it with maximum fuel economy in mind, it may be capable of up to a 15% improvement in highway cruise. If you currently get 45mpg highway, that would rise to 52mpg - a very substantial improvement.

Further improvements could come from an exhaust energy recovery turbine and/or a bottoming cycle driven by engine waste heat, but the latter wouldn't work well in start/stop duty cycles.

Regarding costs and the nine mile range, I'm sure I read somewhere that even though it costs $11000 for EDrive to upgrade the current Prius (30 miles EV range), if you discount the original battery and take into account probable reductions in battery price due to volume this type of upgrade for Toyota could cost a lot less - something like $3-4000 total. So I'm still not totaly convinced its a cost issue - EDrive say the battery may last 5-10 years depending on how "end of life" is defined. However they don't have details on a guarantee yet.

Good post Chingy. I wonder what all these start-ups will do to the landscape when they release their products in the next few years. It's gotta stink when a big company puts millions into R&D only to lose cold to some start-up company, but, oh well!

Companies need to add extra battery packs as an option, ones that can be plugged in at the expense of some trunk space, etc. Great option for people with longer drives, and this would be a modular approach that would not cost companies anything extra.

Honda has been the undisputed mileage king the whole time. They will not relinquish their title without a fight. They make the best and most efficient engines by far: if they would only add much more electrical power (b/c it's very minimal at present) they will do wonders I'm sure, esp. if i.c.e. development continues as it has been. The insight has been out since, when, 1999? 7 years basically unchanged! I'm very eager to see their newest high mileage car, whenever it comes out, to keep the competition going. I pray it will be a plug-in with a serious battery pack.

This is way better than watching baseball.

To supplement my previous post:

If I were a betting man I would bet you could purchase another battery pack from Honda or Toyota, Ford, whoever, and get a (willing) electrician to splice it into the existing architecture. Splice it in in parallel, so the voltage remains exactly the same, but the range is doubled. This could (likely) even trick the onboard computer when it reads the battery as well, as nothing changes except the overall capacity, it would just take a bit longer to charge. No mixing dead batteries with good ones, however: that would be bad. You'd lose your warranty... I don't know what a prius battery costs new, though, so it may not even be close to worth it. Just an idea for high mileage drivers.

Has any crazy hacker tried this trick?

I moved to Tennessee, and yes, the engine in the Prius shuts off going down the hill even at 70 mph! If the slope is enough, of course. My mileage improved from flat Florida by a good couple of mpg.

9 miles (14.5 km) range is perfect. I read earlier that some companies which convert hybrid to plug-in charge $12K for 60 mile range. So for 9 miles, cost will come to aroun $2K. Thats the affordable by many common people.

9 miles is range travelled by 7 days a week by most people.

Excellent Toyota. With Oil @ $75 / barrel, the time for plugin has come.

Please note that Saturn is going to sell a Mild Hybrid Vue for $2K more than regular Vue.

If Toyota does not make it affordable, GM may steal the show.

Thermoelectric/thermovotaic combo: It'll strip half the waste heat off the exhaust and coolant. Maybe throw in a onboard high themp hydrolytic unit, and you'll boost it by >6%. Total efficiency could rise to >62%. Then you could achieve 98+mpg highway, 110+mpg city (conserative estimate). Add better storage units, and it'll rise even more.

Allen

You mentioned Thermoelectric / Thermovoltaic.
Thermoelectric : Is it about converting heat into electricity and is there any device to do that.

Thermovoltaic : what is it.

Quality of energy folks

Heat is one of the least useable forms of energy.

The amount of work you gan get out of a heat engine is dependent on the difference in temp between you high temp and your low temp.

Think of a power plant as an example a small volume of steam is worth more than a large volume of warm water even if they have the same energy content.

http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/power.asp

I've not seen consumer grade devices that do this ... with the exception of running small things like a radio.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/thermoradio.htm

Based on the info you have provided I see no reason to belive that a > 6% boost is reasonable.

Interesting. I have read that vehicles utilise only 33% of energy and waste nearly 67%.

If we can grab another 6% +, that would be great.
But I guess nat-gas fired power plants get 50% utilisation.

On the economic side, Oil Consumption grew
3.5 % in 2004
1.5 % in 2005
even though World economy grew robustly. The reason is the switchover from Oil to Coal, Gas, Nuclear, Wind, etc and conservation and efficiency.

This year Oil consumption growth will be 0% if Hybrids & Flex fueled vehicles have their way and the Big Suv's fall in the wayside.

"Interesting. I have read that vehicles utilise only 33% of energy and waste nearly 67%."

33%, unfortunately, is an optimistic number for a conventional passenger car. Toyota says that the current Prius has an efficiency of 37% - and that's quite an accomplishment. By comparison, Toyota estimates the Corolla to be only 16% efficient.

These numbers represent the efficiency of the vehicles themselves, and do not take into account the energy used to produce and deliver the fuel that they use. A well-to-wheel analysis drops the Prius to 32% and the Corolla to 14%, according to Toyota.

"A well-to-wheel analysis drops the Prius to 32% and the Corolla to 14%, according to Toyota."

How about well-to-wheel for electricity supply.
Instead of delivering oil products to retail gas station, if it is converted to electricity and supplied to homes to be charged into plugin Prius.

Whether its efficient to deliver electricity or transporting gasolene thru pipelines, trains & trucks.

Well-to-Wheel comparisons in the electric case are "mind"-blowing. Especially when you go "green". We did a comparison on the Renault Kangoo Elect'road .. which is a PHEV with approx 50 miles EV-Range.

Renault Kangoo was build in all different engine versions. Here is the "tank to wheel" consumption:
EV consumes 18 to 28 kWh/100 km
diesel consumes 70 to 50 kWh/100 km
gasoline consumes 85 to 60 kWh/100 km
natural gas consumes 130 to 70 kWh/100 km

A number of interesting conclusions from that:
- EV gets two times the milage if you put the natural gas into a power plant when compared to a natural gas engine
- EV gets four times the milage if you look at the city consumption of the natural gas version
- If the diesel is used in a cogeneration plant then the EV can drive at least the same miles as a diesel Kangoo. But when you go to the city the cogen-EV combo will easily outperform the diesel Kangoo.

If the Kangoo would not use NiCd batteries but the latest Lithium technology the milage would look even better.

Now when you start producing ethanol from straw and such it gets even more frustrating. Because buring the straw and producing electricity would get you as much milage as and ethanol car ... but burning it stationary would allow to use the heat in order to dry fruits, clean bottels or cool building etc. on the site if the powerplant.

Since there will never be a way to store the excess heat of an combustion engine inside the car PHEV and EVs are the only way to go ... they can run on wind energy and they free up valuable fuel for cogeneration and reduce the necessary amount of energy intensive biofuel production.

Thats interesting Tomi.
Natural gas supplied over pipelines directly to homes for CNG vehicles may be better than Gasolene / Diesel.

But electricity and plugins are the best, since it can come from multiple sources like nuclear, renewables, fossil fuels, etc.

Hope Toyota puts Ultracap / Flywheel in Prius-2008 as well to grab more braking energy.

Where did I write that CNG is better than Gasolene / Diesel?

I wrote the CNG is the biggest energy waste machine ever put inside a car. 130 kWh/100 km .. that is twice the energy consumption of the gasolene car!

CNG mihgt burn cleaner inside a car then the other fossile fuels ... but CNG has absolutely nothing to do with energy efficiency.

Since today is Tschernobyl day I would also like to stress that there is absolutely no reason to go after nuclear to run electric cars. Cogeneration based on biofuels (wood pellets, straw, biogas, plant oils etc.) combine with wind, solar, water and geothermal is the way to go a way lot cheaper and safer than nuclear can ever be.

Resent near-impossible emission regulation imposed on city buses in parts of US dictate use of stoichiometric NG IC engines. Clean diesel or even diesel-electric buses could not comply, according to recent EPA tests. So for fleet operated city service vehicles, such as delivery trucks, refuse trucks, and buses, NG engines probably are the best solution (they are really CLEAN). However, they do not produce cost benefits over diesel vehicles, due to high cost of maintenance of sophisticated high-pressure components. Personally I am agree to pay premium for super clean vehicles inside high populated areas. Hybrid drivetrain with NG engine would be the best. For personal transportation NG vehicles are totally out of question due to safety concerns – unlike fleet vehicles they could not be assured to get notorious maintenance essential to safely operation of any compressed NG vehicle.

Chernobyl: I am wondering what would be litigation costs for even micro-Chernobyl accident on American soil?

Oops, I got to differ here with our friends.

Japan & France will start putting Nuclear plants to power their plugin-hybrids and that 100 % sure.

There is an article on massive coal usage for
CTL (Coal-To-Liquids)
CTG (Coal-To-Gas)
CTE (Coal-To-Electricity)
in US in greencarcongress.com

If we do not use Nuclear, its Coal which is going to steal the show. Coal usage is growing at rapid pace with the replacement of Oil fired power plants / heaters with the Coal fired 1.

And how many Hurricanes / Floods (each with a power of few atom bombs) will be triggered by Coal is anyones guess.

Open your minds guys.

Sure, big big energy companies and "their elected governments" will either do coal or nuclear. Both "choices" are more or less going to kill us.

If they would do (micro-)cogeneration and solar-wind-biomasse they would go out of business in the long run, because they do not own your house or the farmers land ... and so this is not a real option. Solar can not be monopolized, so it is not an option.

But if you have a Plug-In-Hybrid you get the chance to choose your energy source. The real "fight" is not on the car sector but on the energy sector.

To say "if we do not use Nuclear, its Coal" is strange. Why do you drop all the other options?

Tomi Engel

I am not dropping other options.
Nuclear, Hydro, Wind, Geo, Solar, Bio-fuels : All these sources must be used.

In 2000, Coal provided 23 % of Worlds energy usage
in 2004, Coal grabbed 27 % share. At this rate, it will capture 40 % within a decade and push all other sources down. Thats my concern.

In an earlier post, Tomi quoted the following figures for gasoline and natural gas vehicle efficiencies:

"gasoline consumes 85 to 60 kWh/100 km
"natural gas consumes 130 to 70 kWh/100 km

The CNG figures have a much bigger variance than the gasoline figures. I think Max was observing that the best CNG systems were right on par with the typical gasoline systems (70 kWh/100 km).

That would allow a consumer to get NG piped directly to his own home, run a high efficiency Honda cogeneration unit, and tank up his car on the off moments. You can even run your stove on gas. Its convenient and possibly even somewhat cost-effective.

If one drives about 8 miles round trip to work and parks in an outdoor parking lot, can you get home on Solar Power? Can someone calculate the number of miles the car could be driven if a solar panel is placed on the car (assume the solar panel is about 3 feet by 6 feet). The car is in the lot 8 hours. I sent this question to Toyota and got one of those "no answer answers". Trying to figure out if one could plug into a solar source to recharge the battery.

The answer is that 9 miles range requires about 2 kWh of electrical energy.

Average incident solar energy in the USA is 5.5 kWh per metre squared per day (more in summer, less in winter).

The best solar cells can capture 20% of that (Sunpower A300), so you can get 1.1kWh of electricity per m2 per day on average.

To get your 9-mile range from solar you would therefore need on average 2 metres squared, or about the same size as the roof on the Prius. It's a nice fit.