If and when GM or any other company actually does introduce a PHEV in series production, pay close attention to battery chemistry, projected unit volumes and lease terms.

It will also be interesting to see if these companies will cross-subsidize the expensive battery packs or expect enthusiasts to put their money where their mouth is. Financially, GM can ill afford to become a leader in a loss-making new vehicle segment, even temporarily. Toyota has deeper pockets, and has proven that it is willing to produce and sustain a marketing vehicle (the Prius) for a number of years until it becomes profitable.

Well they made the EV1 so they have the tech.
This will be interesting since they own Saturn which has cheap light weight body construction.
Fingers crossed on this one. Is GM going to pull a rabbit out of its hat?

Bob

It seems that the clue fairy has FINALLY made a delivery to GM. This is great news--the more companies doing the right things, the better it is for everyone.

But I'm really concerned about that 60MPG number. That strongly suggests that this is either a half-hearted attempt (very short battery-only range), or they're targeting a vehicle much larger than the Prius. I hope it's the former, as they can bump up the battery pack size very easily once they realize people will love to have this capability.

I'd bet (and hope) that the Federal government step up and buys a whole bunch of these guys, followed by any state which has GM factories in it. Lots of folks may be underwhelmed with GMs vision for a green America, but if its getting 60 MPG (effective) and will help keep American jobs in America, it'll be hard to be against it, even if they do get $55,000 or some other insanely high price per car.

Stormy -

please consider that a 10% improvement on a million cars makes a bigger difference than a 100% improvement on 100,000 cars. The 10% improvement is MUCH easier to achieve and actually sell.

This is a commodity industry. Focus on the things that can be produced on a very large scale, even if the technology involved is a lot less sexy. Think displacement on demand for big brutish engines, turbocharging + homogenous GDI + cam phasing for small ones and port deactivation + high EGR for the subcompacts.

I'm afraid I do not care very much about the health of the auto industry.
I am concerned with 1) health of people 2) cost of externalities involved with oil use (Army costs in cash and lives) 3)Damage to planet from possible CO2 warming.

The 10% improvement on the million cars should be mandatory using CAFE not exempting SUV and trucks.
Commericial plates and higher registration fees for people who actually need 4 wheel drive trucks in Greenwich, CT can ensure the plumber still has a truck.
No SUV's or pickup trucks on parkways in the northeast, and higher tolls on the bridges and roads. Using all the "this is a truck not a car " tricks that allowed the car companies to shift production from cars to over 55% truck/SUV against them.
Giving a product that gets great milage and low emissions will allow the market to work as fuel goes up.
The ethanol CAFE loophole must be closed and a real incentive introduced.
ALL ICE auto engines, and offroad clones for boats, construction equipment etc. must meet PZEV emisions.

GM killed their baby (EV-1), and now they want sympathy for being childless. Please remember the other US companies never even tried!I hope they are working on the plug in hybrid. I hope it is so good Toyota has to license it! But they have blood on their hands and need to atone for it.
My president says we are at war. My family has relatives in the military, all home right now but all have been over there. They sacrificed. I want some sacrifice from the US public. Buy one size smaller, the car with better mileage, something. And the car companies have to make better cars and stop playing games with the oil guys and congress.

Rafael:
Don't foreget stoplight auto AND manual instant engine shutdown AND startup, along with decoupling (or clutchable) the engine from pumps and powering them with electric motors (AC, coolant, supercharger). Also, a reasonably designed modern automobile will need 30-90 hp (instead of 150-400) for highway cruise. A possibility would be to reduce fuel air ratio during stable low load periods, with instantaneous power increase on demand for passing, and hills. All this may be done with minor to mild engineering, and software/computer modification and upgrade. It may be added to quick responding automated/ paddle shift manuals, with 5-6 grears + overdrive and reverse. All these may save another 10-50% on fuel depending on driving habits, and route taken.

60 mpg for a plug in. Toyota will be introducing that in a couple of years without a plug in. Add the plug in to the Prius and GM, once again, will be left in the dust.

Maybe a better approach is to modularize plug in technology to give the consumer options as to degree of battery capacity and motor capacity depending upon how much range, mpg, and speed they desire.

It seems if your commute 5 miles and the battery range is 20 miles and you recharge it every night you could never use the gas engine and get unlimited MPG. Is there a standard calculation for PHEV MPG?

Allen, the next gen Prius comes october of next year...not a bad idea about the modular batteries, but of course they would have to provide precious space for add ons........

Unfortunately they will take forever to release the vehicle once it is in production and they will have a two year waiting list once it does start.

I can't believe my eyes. There are hardly any cars that get ANY good gas mileage on the market today (with the exception of a couple models), no affordable commercial EV's whatsoever, and as soon as GM comes out with something, we are already criticizing them. Shame shame shame. Next thing you know, you'll be complaining it doesn't fly yet. If thier car get 60 mpg it is better than the Prius (whom we all agree is a fantastic step towards many goals) yet because they came second, they are looked upon as a second rate citizen. C'mon people, get real.

Agreed, Richard, lets give them a chance. I don't blame people for being skeptical, but let's wait and see. I would be VERY suprised if they came up with something to beat the next gen Prius though, it's tough enough to catch up with my second gen Prius........

I will wait and see what this thing turns out to be, but this is what GM should be doing. Perception is 90% of reality. People perceive GM as having poor fuel economy, and Toyota having good fuel economy. This will do a lot to change that perception.

Of course, if this fast-tracking leads to poor reliability, it will just underscore the perception that GM can't produce reliable cars.

GM may not match Toyota, but plenty of people are buying GM vehicles now that don't come close to the Prius. If those same people switched to a 60 mpg vehicle, that would be a good thing. I have no love for GM, but doing something that improves the world, even if it is only in desperation to save their hide, is okay. That is how markets work.

Besides, that just puts more pressure on all the other auto makers to step up to the plate. I hope they do have long lines waiting to buy!!

jPadula
Buy one size smaller, the car with better mileage, something.

I'm going to be selling my car (1999 Protege) and buying a motor scooter. But I don't look at it as a sacrifice, since the scooter's going to be a lot more fun.

Given the 60 mpg I bet its going to be an SUV. As far as marketing goes at least that would attract a lot of Americans....

I also think we all should be congratulating them for actually responding to us. Even if the first model isn't as great as we hope, its a first step in the right direction (forgeting about EV1 for the moment...).

Correction to the above: GM may not match Toyota, but plenty of people are buying TOYOTA vehicles that can't come close to matching the fuel efficiency of the Prius. Toyota produces some of the worst gas guzzlers money can buy! Look at all their large SUV's and trucks, all in the 14-17mpg range for the city rating, and the overwhelming majority of drivers only get the city rating anyway. Toyota's fleet average is worse than Honda's because of the fact they produce so many gas guzzlers.

Toyota = Lip service to greenies
Toyota = gas guzzlers for the masses

Micah
A formula for figuring PHEV mileage:

(% of miles using ICE) X (gallons per mile on the highway) + (% of miles on electric) X (%of miles on electric)= gallons per mile cumulative

the reciprocal of GPM cumulative = MPG overall

For example say you drive 80% on electric and 20% on the road and get 60 MPG on the road:

.2 X .017 + .8 X 0 = .0033 1/.0033=300 MPG

In fact the more I think about it, the more I think such a PHEV SUV would really change the status quo. I can see it being way more popular that the Prius. This has probably got something to do with Andy Frank perhaps?

Micah
correction: last parenthesis should read "gallons per mile on electric", which would be zero of course.

and as soon as GM comes out with something, we are already criticizing them

Um, this isn't, in even the remotest conception of things, "coming out" with a vehicle. It's a rumor from an anonymous source about a product which doesn't yet exist, and won't for many years. Even then, its mileage numbers barely stack up to the Prius, and won't match the numbers of the next Prius - which doesn't seem to be a plugin.

If you want to get all worked up and clappy over this, go ahead.

Toyota = Lip service to greenies. Toyota = gas guzzlers for the masses

That's strange. They and Honda have a lock on all the most efficient gas-powered vehicles sold. Toyota has the widest selection of hybrids that all have excellent emissions profiles. And both they and Honda have considerably higher CAFE numbers than GM or Ford.

And your response to that? Bash Toyota, of course.

If they produce it GREAT! If it is a SUV, I'll pass (whether PHEV or HEV) and wait for them to put such a drivetrain into a sedan/coupe/hatchback/wagon layout.

I think GM could be the most profitable, economical, and efficient manufacturer in the world, with 100 mpg for every car, and some sarcastic dribble diarrhea would continue to seep from the mouths of those who think they know best.

They're obviously making some sort of concerted effort with their new SUVS getting best in class mileage - while still hauling and towing more than just about anything else available to the average consumer. GM has a 400hp sports car that delivers 28mpg highway, a good selling subcompact, AFM on tons of models, E85 on tons of models, hybrid full-size SUVS, at least three mild hybrids, etc.

Your beef is with the consumer who buys the product, not GM. It's a business for Christ's sake. Their products are obviously good enough for, oh, a million or so people to buy each year. Go crucify someone else.

Now, as far as PIHEVs go, this is great news, even if the charge lasts just 25 miles. I'd never buy gasoline except for when I went out of town.

I think GM could be the most profitable, economical, and efficient manufacturer in the world, with 100 mpg for every car, and some sarcastic dribble diarrhea would continue to seep from the mouths of those who think they know best.

Well, you'll never get to test that theory, since GM will never become anything close to that fantasy of yours.

My bet is GM could sign Satan himself on as CEO and make cars out of dead puppies, and people like yourself would still come here and cheer for them.

I think some of reaction here can be chalked up to what peoples expectations are for the mileage of a Plug in Hybrid. Toyota had let it slip (true or not) that the next Prius will be a Plug in and is shooting for an average 100mpg with it.

So here comes GM with their fast tracked Plug in Hybrid rumor and they're shooting for 60mpg with it - which I have been able to do with an old Honda Insight for 4 or 5 years now.

Now, maybe, GM is talking about a plug in Hummer H3 that gets 60mpg or some other huge heavy SUV - that would be technically impressive (if not socially dissapointing) but they didn't give that kind of detail. Just say Plug In Hybrid (like they did) and alot of people are going to assume this is going to be the best that they can do (mid to small car). This would also seem to reinforce the notion that GM doesn't get where things are going to be in a couple of years and/or they are technically incompetent. Based on their previous management decisions and plans both are almost expected. JMHO...

thanks BJ. I know that formula but GM had to plug in some assumptions for the % battery & % ICE. Did they assume 90% electric or 10% electric to get to 60 MPG. See what I mean. GM needs to explain the formula or standard assumptions need to be used for apples to apples comparisons.

I love the idea of battery options. I only need to go 5K on battery for 90% of my trips ... I don't need a huge battery to avoid most of my gas purchases. But it would be nice to upgrade in the future if/when my driving habits change. It would also be nice if the battery(s) were easily accessable so that they could be swapped, or charged inside (I'm strong). If GM makes one I'll look at it.

"according to anonymous GM officials"
Desperate Vaporware from GM.

Thanks for spilling some more of that fantastic dribble, Joseph. Grab a napkin, there's a little on your chin yet.

Let's bring this right out front. Remind me, please, why GM is in the crosshairs?

Vue-Hybrid which will retain existing powertrain and costs just 2K more than regular-Vue is a good attempt, lets see how it is progressing.

If it does well, then they should go for plugin with just 5-10 mile range or they should give 2 options 5 mile or 10 miles.

Also I hope they install the 6-speed tranny in Vue (both Hybrid & Regular) to boost mileage.

Thanks for spilling some more of that fantastic dribble, Joseph. Grab a napkin, there's a little on your chin yet.

Going for the gutter, Adam? The term one usually uses is "drivel". Might want to check on that. Gonna call me a "doodoohead" next?

Let's bring this right out front. Remind me, please, why GM is in the crosshairs?

What crosshairs? You're the one whining about them being under siege and underappreciated.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060623/ap_on_re_us/brf_hybrid_taxis

More Hybrid Taxis for New York City. Hope Vue-Hybrid also gets shot at it.

Now, as far as PIHEVs go, this is great news, even if the charge lasts just 25 miles. I'd never buy gasoline except for when I went out of town.

I have the same thought before, but there is something about PIHEVs that some may not think about... you HAVE to run your gasoline engine once in awhile; both to use up old gas, and to keep the engine in working order.

You can bypass the old gas issue with fuel additives, but who knows what emissions will result from it? If the gas engine is going to be used only a few times a year for long trips, then I think it'd be better if people just buy an EV for the city, and rent for the trips.

On the flip side, the same can be said about charging batteries when PIHEV is used during a long trip. Since Batteries are best kept fully charged, until hotels provides charging, the batteries either have to run depleted, or the gasoline engine have to recharge all the batteries, and then the driver will have to notify the software that it won't get charged for awhile, and the vehilce like a normal hybrid. Now, I'm sure all that will be taken care of when production model comes out. However, PIHEVs will require a little more minding from the driver.

I certainly hope they are planning to do plug-in/plug-out I could get rid of my generator.

It would be nice if GM would go with a series hybrid. Although it would be too easy to discard the ICE. It would set them up for their promised full cell, however. To bad it's tough to have vision when you are so focused on the bottom line.

Considering that electric motors are 90% efficient at converting electricity to horsepower and gas engines are under 30% efficient at converting gasoline into horsepower then a gallon of gas equals about 10 kwh. At 10 cents/kwh that works out to $1/gal of electricity.
As we use more and more electricity in cars and less and less gas what will replace the lost gas tax revenue? This will be an even bigger political problem in Europe than the US.

Hmm, it sounds promising. Maybe GM is finally getting its act together.

But to quote someone else, I'll believe when I see it.

40 comments, yikes.

Factoids:
GM PHEV: >55 mpg
Toyota PHEV: 100 mpg

Conceded, we don't know if this is apples to apples. But based on those numbers, I am not buying any GM stock just now.

As the man said, it's a business. And as a business GM is not doing too well...

Vaporware it my be, but even vaporware espusers end up biilding pressure for the vaporware. But Dr Andrew Fank's baby is being accepted everywhere. He certainly deserves some public ballyhoo. How about a presidential citatuion? or a Nobel prize?

Now if only we could drive a stake through the heart of the proven perpetual vaporware from that charleton Amory Lovins. Mre impoverished people have died from his uninformed and cruelly wrong prognostications than from any other dopey philosopher...

It does not matter when GM will release the PHEV, or how many unit will be available, just the fact that GM is working on this will raise GM's standing in the public eye. From public's sympathy will come stronger sale potential for vehicles all across the lineup. Same strategy that Toyota and Honda have done to boost their public image. Let's just hope that GM won't ship any more jobs overseas, while Toyota, Honda etc. are building more factories in the US.

Just got the word today,since we moved, But Danny S. a friend in the National Guard was injured in Afganistan and has been in a coma since. He has been transfered from Walter Reed to florida. It does not look good.
Keep this in mind when you are supporting bad automotive engineering that affects national policy. Neocons and liberals agree, stop oil consumption and starve a terrorist.

Nothing here to see... Move along...

Simply put there are no facts yet.

We will have to wait till the auto show to see.

Toyota is gonna have the first plug in available, through third parties you could say they already do.

You guy are pathetic, we all know that Loremo EV might have above 280mpg and you gibber here about some GM SUV plugin crap with 60mpg..

The $ savings will be less than you think for plug in technology. Even though you save at the pump, you'll have to pay the electricity company to recharge your vehicle when you plug it in. With average electricity price at $0.12/kwh and your car using ~20kw/h at highway speeds, (a rough guess which is about 27 horsepower) 20 x .12 = $2.40/hour of highway use say 65 miles.

Basically, your're paying the electricity company $2/gallon of gas assuming your car gets around 50mpg otherwise. Pretty good, but then you figure in the extra wear and tear on the batteries, the advantage is nil. Diesels look more promising from a cost standpoint.

Status: SUVs are getting less than 20 mpg in average.

Future: GM SUV (maybe) with 60 mpg (maybe).

Great news!!! (Maybe...) No matter how many gen. 3 Priusses with superior mpg are sold there will still be people who are dead set on buying SUVs, and for that reason trippling the gas mileage of such vehicles can only be good.

Sure, you can already buy dog house sized cars that get better gas mileage but any car that gets significantly better than its predecessor or other similar vehicles is a step in the right direction.

Thomas - who prefers Toyota over GM.

Toyota = Lip service to greenies.
Toyota = gas guzzlers for the masses

a)This is true for every automaker/politition I can think of. b)Self Righteousness aside, despite the fact that you all are bombarding venom all over the auto industry, you all own and operate a car. c)I don't believe Honda's CAFE is higher than Toyota's. Even with the Pilot/Ridgeline & Element/CRV, millions of motorcycles and Civics should more than offset that, I would think...

50+ comments. Who said that GM was dying?
A 60 mpg PHEV would be a good start for North American heavy car/light truck and certainly much better (3X to 4X) than current units.

Better, lighter future batteries, ultra-capacitors + design upgrades could make this a 100+ mpg vehicle within 3-4 more years.

This is good news. Let's see what others will come up with to match or beat GM.

"I only need to go 5K on battery for 90% of my trips ... "

Neil, if you only have to drive 5 kilometers, ever considered to take a bike or walk? Or if you are unfit and fat, a scooter?

GM just announced they're dropping 1/4 of their workforce.
They'd have a better chance of a making high mileage vehicles if
they hired back their old employees to pull rickshaws.

Hi Paul,

Lol, I am fat and out of shape (relatively, I swim 2K per day) but I do walk to almost everything within 4K. The 90% of my trips are my weekly grocery runs (too heavy for bike). What I really want now is a Motorino electric scooter (does 60kph) with a Li-on battery (200k range).

Toyota has gas guzzlers for the masses?

For automatics:
Yaris : 34/39
Corolla: 30/38
Camry: 24/33

OK, now Chevy (since someone brought up GM)

Aveo: 26/35 (worst than Yaris, similar size)
Cobalt: 25/34 (worse than Corolla, similar size)
Malibu: 24/32 (slightly worse than Camry)

http://www.motorage.com/motorage/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=338424

curent expected life of NiMh battery 1000 cycles
expected life of Lith ion 1000- 1500

Price of 6.5 Ah NiMh D cell used in current hybrids $19 - $10 each depending on # purchased
# of cells per pack ~ 240

A plug in hybrid is neat and all ... but how much better is it really?

100mpg and up (depending on driving habits), much less CO2 (depending on electricity source, where I am its mostly clean hydro) ... sounds a lot better to me. If battery technology stays on its current course ... much better.

It would be nice for GM (or any American car company) to get back in the game, but GM has a history of producing cars with significanly lower reliability than Toyota or Honda. They also seem to have a management structure that calcified in the 50's and which would rather sit around blaming each other for the company failures than look facts square in the face and bite the bullet. I expect if their engineers came up with a car that ran a year on a thimbleful of alcohol, the management wouldn't have the guts to try producing it, because "Americans want big heavy powerful cars."

There have been some remarkable advances announced in new battery designs (6-min recharge time and higher energy density) that begin to make a full EV look interesting. If GM would spearhead that research, they might have a chance, but if I can't get 300-400 miles off a single charge and have to wait all night for a re-charge, the EV will not fly for me and, I expect, most others.

As to the claim about only 1000 recharge cycles for NiMh batteries, et al. That might be true for full charge/discharge cycles, but the Prius has gotten MUCH better life out of the batteries by restricting the charge/discharge range to 40% to 80% charge. They expect a life of 15 years and at LEAST 150,000 miles out of these batteries, and to date, evidence indicates they will get it. By the time you factor in decreased brake wear, (typically 100,000 mi between brake jobs) a simpler and more reliable transmission than anyone elsd and the expected decrease in the cost of replacement batteries in 5-10 years, and you are looking at a VERY competitive vehicle.