Diesel hybrids may not have been clean enough in 1999 because we had such dirty diesel fuel. The cost may have seemed prohibitive when gas was $1.50 a gallon. Times have changed and they certainly changed a lot between 2003 and 2005. I don't think the "freedom" car means much freedom for anyone, when it advocates compressed hydrogen 20 years from now.

why on earth are they building these things so ass backwards ? just build a proper EV with short range (read: cheap battery pack ) , and add a diesel generator.

Angelo.

Yeh, wind and solar would probably change the greenhouse equation but not the efficiency one. Then we have to make a judgement about whether using same to feed PHEVs is the highest and best use. We could do it but would we want to. Maybe PHEVs would indeed be a good use of off peak wind. Beyond that, I don't know. There are other cost, range, and battery issues that need to be overcome, in my opinion, to make them a viable and economic option for the vast majority of people who live in the real world.

Engineer: Maybe gas fired combined would be the ticket but that's not the world we live in. There are also the distribution losses to consider. I don't have a dog in this hunt but am just asking the questions. I would love for PHEVs to make sense from an efficiency, cost, and GHG standpoint. In the mean time, I will probably stick to my Prius.

Engineer: FWIW,I believe the authors of the study I cited assumed combined cycle, so it appears that were trying to give the EV a best case or at least a better case scenario. The study could be erroneous, I don't know. Or maybe they assumed a different level of battery efficiency.

Engineer again. It may be that the thermal efficiency of combined cycle has improved since the authors did their study in 2003. This info from a recent issue:

"But while nuclear engineers are still looking for ways to bring down that technology's costs, another energy converter can come close to the "too cheap to meter" category: the gas turbine. Right now, most of the world's newest electricity plants are gas turbine-powered, with natural gas as a fuel. Simple-cycle plants, so called because they use only gas turbines to drive electrical generators, are more efficient—with thermal efficiencies as high as 42 percent—than nuclear plants and can cost one-tenth of a nuclear plant per kilowatt output. Combined-cycle plants, which incorporate both gas turbines and steam turbines, also cost much less per kilowatt than nuclear plants, and their thermal efficiencies—as high as 60 percent—have made them the efficiency superstars of the power plant world."

Thanks for the info. Maybe EV and PHEV can rock after all.

Carl,
The idea is to get off oil! Also, the government isn’t saying, “You can’t build that car.” They’re just saying that the tax payers aren’t going to pay for it any more. Remember, the PNGV program started in 1994.

Americans Engineers produce the most innovative stuff in the world through reasearch such as PNGV programs. The US research base is the biggest in the world too. Americans spend the most amount of maney on research. The only problems is that Americans have hard time commercializing their reaserch (for one reason or another).
Toyota started their hybrid program after PNGV program started and they played catch up, but they still used all the reasearch done by US people. Toyota build maraketable product, while US companies shelved products theirs. Toyotas work is paying off while US companies basically put all that research money down the drain.
And what's bad is that this problem is not only in automotive research.

I guess the tax payers do not want to pay $1 a year for the PNGV program
but they are willing to pay $1000 a year more for fuel..hmmm

My 2002 Audi A2 TDI 3L consistently returns 3-3,1 l/100 km (78,4 mpg US). It is capable of running at 170 km/h (102 mph - that's the same top speed as of the Prius) and it would keep up with a Prius on acceleration side. Plus it does not rust.
I am not at all impressed with Citroen's 3,5 l/100 km.

@Laurynas Sadauskas: The production of the A2 has been stopped some time ago.

Well, John Galt. Just who are you anyway? Kidding. Your ideas, (rationing, taxation), are disincentives, the stick approach. My ideas are "economic incentives", the carrot approach. Households whose cars have a limited driving range via "inexpensively generated electricity" (utility grid or rooftop voltiac panels), direct the development of local economies which reduces need for long-distance travel, and encourages the development of infrastructure for walking, bicycling and mass transit, all more energy efficient, of course.

My approach is also "carrot-oriented" (hee hee) because the advantages of batteries, like, during like an emergency? Like ya know, you could still play with your X-Box or use like, the phone? And like, cuz the batteries make the car, like handle better. Like, ya know, they won't like rollover, and that might bring yer insurance rates down, like?

John Galt, you are so 20th Century. Like amazing, dude.

My webpage www.byronwine.com has a copy of a 1983 advertisement for a 72-mpg Peugeot diesel.

What, limited range is the biggest advantage of the plug in hybrid? Wells, that is some weird trippin' conclusion you've came to.

PHEVs don't have a limited range. They're able to travel 300-400 miles on a tank just like any other car.

What is limited is the distance that they can travel on electric power only; between 30 and 40 miles. After that, the ICE starts up and charges the battery or powers the car. Since most driving is done within 20 miles of someone's home, people could go weeks without having their gasoline engine even turn on.

It's the best of both worlds: The range of an ICE without having to use gasoline every day.

Well, how is the Diesel-electric hybrid compares to the PriusII having Atkinson-cycle gasoline-electric hybrid? The diesel engine gets its efficiency from high compression, hence high degree of expansion to capture more work done on the gas, without sacrificing too much power, due to the high compression inherent. The Atkinson-cycle engine, if jacked up on the geometric compression, can also have comparable expansion ratio as the Diesel, WITHOUT the real high compression in the compression stroke. Thus, Atkinson-cycle gas engine can be designed to nearly rival the Diesel's efficiency, AT A SACRIFICE OF TOP-END POWER, due to the Atkinson's lower effective compression, hence limiting power developement at the top end. But, in a full hybrid scheme with powerful electric motor and battery to complement the anemic engine's power, WHO REALLY NEEDS DIESEL-ELECTRIC HYBRID? Note that the price to pay for Diesel is in the expensive emission control system, and in the tough, heavy engine construction designed to take the stress of high compression, and in the expensive thousands of psi direct fuel injection system.
Thus, could it be that Diesel-electric hybrid somewhat of a misguided effort? Pray tell.

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