So that's a 13 kWh battery then.

If they used 18650 lithium-ion like AC-propulsion, Tesla etc, they could store that 13 kWh in as little as 65 kg, using 1,500 Sanyo lithium-ion cells, but I expect they'll be using some kind of lead-acid - anyone heard what type of battery they are using?

Sounded great until I read the price for leasing and the fact that this would only go mainly large companies. Oh well, the wait continues. Also, this didn't mention the SMART EVs speed.

Great! When can I purchase one? So far in Canada we have import restrictions on 100% electric vehicles. I might have to make one but in the meantime I was looking at the Happy Messenger made in China. I need a new car soon and it would be nice not to have to worry about fuel prices. I spend currently about $2500 per year in gas and oil changes. With this electric I would half my maintenance/fuel costs and NILL my emissions test. Maybe one day.

Clett -

marketing departments will claim (almost) anything, but it is possible that actual battery capacity will be higher than 13 kWh because complete discharges would sharply reduce battery life. I don't know which battery type they are using, but I doubt it's lead-acid - even 13kWh worth of those would add enormous weight and bulk to the vehicle.

t -

30kW is what the current diesel variant of the smart fortwo is rated at, with a top speed of 135kph (84mph). An electric vehicle could not keep that speed up for very long, though, due to the low energy density of batteries. Instead, a smart ev would be used mostly for in-town deliveries. In London, the hefty lease fee is offset by not having to pay for parking, road tax or congestion, which together add a fairly staggering amount to the cost of operating a regular car.

Hi Chris.

It seems strange that there are import restrictions on EVs in Canada. Its not like there are a whole lot of them around! Do you know the reasons for this?

I found it on Memorandum D19-12-1 dated Nov 8 2002 on the government of Canada website which stated that electric vehicles being imported from all countries were prohibited. Now that's a few years ago and I haven't found any updated information so I'm not sure if that still stands. I can however I believe build my own which is a possibility.

$690 per month??? That makes it like a $35000 car. That is a lot a money for a car that doesn't go over 40mph. Why can't anyone match what GM did with the EV1?

One reason circulating about electric cars is the Canadian government hasn't found a way to recover the gas tax lost by someone using an electric vehicle.

Yeah. $690/mo. is a bit steep. Whatever happened to the Happy Messenger?

Happy Messenger is available in the US via Miles Automotive.
http://www.milesautomotive.com/

12kWh/100Km (@$.1/kWh) = $1.20/62 miles = $.019/mile = 53 miles/$ = cost of electricity, assuming perfectly efficient batteries (false assumption, batteries can never be more than 50% efficient) and perfectly efficient charging electronics (they should operate in the 95%+ range, so this is ok)

13 kWh batteries (@$100/kWh (USABC long term goal)) replace after 1000 cycles (62,000 miles) (USABC long term goal). so, $1300 battery pack replacement cost spread over 62,000 miles gives us $.021/mile prorated cost to replace the battery (excluding interest or inflation deflation or W). this is a optimistic since it is based on a goal, not reality.

so, in an underpowered smart, we have an optimistic estimated cost per mile of $.04/mile for fuel.

in a regular smart, you get 45 mpg assuming $4/gal = 45mile/$4 = .089$/mile

.089-.04 = .049$/mile

assuming a life cycle of 100,000 miles a purely economically-minded person should be willing to spend an extra $4900 for a BEV.

somehow, i think the premium is still somewhat more than that. probably closer to $30,000 extra for a small car.

Why not exclude them from taxes altogether? Doesn't the benefit outweigh the lost revenue?

For that matter, exclude them from safety standards also. Say perhaps, any vehicle that weighs less than some amount (1500lbs)? It is many leagues safer than a 180 mph crotch rocket motorcycle in any event.

And why does the Smart have to look like something from a cartoon?

HI Chris, I am a fellow Canadian who has also thought of building my own electric car! If you happen to find any other more current news I would be very obliged if you passed it on to me (and everyone else here too) please. I will do the same.

Just an idea for you, but if you look at the web-site for "Ridge Runner" they make an incredible rough-terrain vehicle: I thought about using their chassis but putting in an electric drive with perhaps room for a tiny genset for longer rides...just a thought for you in your ponderings about building a car... It's a bit 'rough,' if you can pardon the pun, but as do-it-yourselfers we can't expect the level of refinement found in a honda... Good luck!

there are now low end NEVs ( miles automotive/happy messenger 25mph ) at $10k and there are high-end supercars ( Mullen/Hybrid technologies Lix-75, 180mph) at $100K

Who is going to strike first with something in the middle ground for the masses ?

The Canadian Government could increase little by little taxes on electrical current? This would help to decrease the overall energie consumption too.

I'm betting that they're using NiMH batteries on this car. That's the technology GM implemented on their updated EV1, and the technology that Toyota implemented on the Prius. If so, they should probably get good lifespan out of the battery packs, as reports coming out of the Prius community suggest very few battery problems there, even after years on the road.

When examining the economics of this car, you have to account for the following factors:

1. Gasoline costs upwards of $6/gal in London, not $4.
2. Gasoline engines have other maintenance items, such as oil and brakes, which need frequent attention. Regenerative braking in electric cars spares the conventional system a good deal of wear and tear.
3. As Rafael points out, saving tax and parking is a considerable amount. To add detail to the London Congestion Charge point: Business fleet operators pay 5 pounds per day for a car driven in the zone. If operated for 20 working days per month, that amounts to 100 pounds per month, which is, in itself, over a quarter of the monthly lease payment for this car. Parking and tax probably work out to an equal amount -- and so, all of a sudden, the numbers start to line up.

Governments are not inherently against electric cars but Oil industries (and future biofuel industries + farmers) certainly do not, for a very good reason, want electric vehicles on the roads.

Governments have to be re-elected. To win the next election they need financial support from profitable industries. Votes from farmers are also essential in many parts of the country.

It may not be environmentally sound but it is basic free world democracy at work. The existing $0.54/gal import tariff on Ethanol is one of many demonstrations on how it works in real democratic life.

As for gas tax loss, just increase registration fees and high speed highway tolls. The gas tax in the US is not paying enough for what it is supposed to in covering expenses for the roads.

Here's a view on the EV1 from a GM technician who worked on the project.

Some facts about the EV1, the research and development of which was produced by _my_ division of GM, Hughes Electronics:

General Motors lost two billion dollars on the project, and lost money on every single EV1 produced. The leases didn't even cover the costs of servicing them.

The range of 130 miles is bogus. None of them ever achieved that under normal driving conditions. Running the air conditioning or heater could halve that range. Even running the headlights reduced it by 10%.

As they say, read the whole thing.

I am trying to figure out how Hybrid technologies can buy a car retrofit it and it gets 100miles per charge goes highway speeds while this car has a bunch of limitations. ??? Cost about the same if not less.
In mass production aren't costs supposed to go down.

Bob

Previous electric Smart cars were powered by the Zebra battery.

RE:Cervus

yes, read the entire thing, i.e. read the entire thread to get more balanced views. the guy obviously has a personal axe to grind, like bickering about serviceability of a 288V system .. funny that Toyota repairmen arent complaining about similar systems in Prius.
The monetary loss is no surprise when producing bleeding-edge tech ( the thing had AC controller in it .. ) in abysmally low volume
battery replacement being arcane was _intentionally_ done so by GM to keep would-be modifiers and hackers getting killed tinkering. Thats why they had a two specially-made forklift combination for servicing.

Everyone is trying to cram more power into a battery so they can power conventional build car bodies, SUV's even. I believe this is not the right approach.

If we want to be serious about EV's we need to get their energy usage down! This means lighter, smaller purpose build vehicles. A commuter vehicle typically transports 1 person with maybe a jump seat for an unexpected passenger. Such vehicle typically travels through highway and city traffic thus needs to be able to travel at least at 80 km/h but it's range only needs to be 80 - 100 km depending on your particular needs. A finely purpose tuned vehicle will allow you to leave unneeded energy at home and thus save on weight and so on.

The key to a succesfull EV is to have a many different purpose build vehicles. People have to let go of the idea to use 3 tons of steel to move an 80kg payload. Car's don't have to have 5 seats and a 1 cubic meter boot and a range of 500 km all the time for everyone. Forget about airconditioning and open the window. With EV's the air on the highway will be breathable. So I really cringe when I see Hybrid SUV's or even worse EV SUV's. No matter where you take the enery from, you should not be using that much enery to move your bag of bones around in the first place.

Technology is helping to increase battery capacity but there is little being done to reduce the power needed to power an EV in the first place. Weight reduction, size reduction and so on.

Thanks, Cervus,
for injecting a bit of reality check into what is up to now has been a band-wagon of GM bashing due to GM crushing of the mythical EV1. GM should have publicized these reality about EV instead taking all the punches from EV enthusiasts. (ie. the movie "Who really killed the EV1")

Paying $35,000 in lease for a 2-seat pint-size microcar is nutty, especially when for that sum of money, you can buy a used Prius and have someone installed a custom 12kwh Valence battery for ~50 mi worth of electrical range, well, that is if the Plugged-in Prius will also qualify for the EV preferential treatment in London, England. You'll never have to worry about running out of battery in the middle of your trip.

Chris,
Get yourself a Prius and a ~$10,000 USD worth of Li-phosphate battery and then you don't have to worry about importing an EV into Canada, or having to build your own. Start saving!

RE: Happy Messenger - could someone please explain what happened to the performance specs between the time this was last posted and now? It went from a viable commuter car to a substandard paperweight in less than a year.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/chinese_ev_comp.html

Just read the Consumer Reports comments on the Smart car, gasoline variety: 45 mpg, 0 - 60 in 22 seconds, unresponsive steering, rough gear shift ( figures from memory, though more or less ok ). Not much to say for all those years of development work.
The Smart car 'battery special' looks equally unspecial.
Btw, thanks Rafael for the info on Canadian auto usage.
Does the Canadian entrant into the electric market, made in Quebec i think, do any better ?
For what it's worth, and prepared to be shot down by the bright sparks on this site, i often wonder why a truly small 4 stroke engine, set at a single 'speed', its optimum for fuel usage, couldn't be used to repower batteries in an otherwise all electric car. Going a step further, what about a two stroke engine, much cheaper to produce and smaller ( i understand ? ) to power the batteries, with the two stroke electronically controlled ( check work done by Orbital Engine ) and thus generating no more pollutants than a four stroke. Feedback would be appreciated.

re: hamerhokie, the one they are currently selling is like a mini-messenger. the one mentioned in the GCC article is the "XS200", due out in "late 2007". shitty, i'll admit.

Tan,
What you've described in your last paragraph is a plugged-in hybrid car with an electric transmission like I've been proposing in this GCC forum. I think that Siemen is offering variants on this theme to automfg's (see previous article on this subject on GCC). The minimum-sized engine is coupled to a starter-generator that provides current to a traction motor during acceleration. The large-size battery also provide current simultaneously to the traction motor to improve acceleration. During cruise, the engine is mechanically coupled to the traction motor via a clutch (or torque-lockup), thus preventing losses via the electric route, which is only ~80% efficient, while direct mechanical coupling is 100% efficient. Meanwhile, the starter/generator can continue to charge the battery during cruising on engine power. If more power is needed for acceleration during cruise or climbing a hill or passing, the battery will supply power to the traction motor to boost the engine torque, simulating a gear down-shift in geared transmission unit.

Forget about two-stroke engines. If sump lubrication is used to reduce hydrocarbon emission, the oil lost through the cut-out ports in the cylinders will contribute to increase in emission, while deprive the piston rings of adequate oil for proper lubrication, inspite of direct fuel injection improvement by Orbital. Thus, oil must be mixed with fuel for proper 2-stroke lubrication, which raises emission. Plus, more heat is produced in 2-stroke engine due to the lack of a cooling intake stroke, thus more failure prone, and is restricted to smaller engine size with higher surface to volume ratio for optimal cooling.

The best way to go electric is still going to be the Prius with a third party plug in kit. You get a real car that is 75% electric yet does not need you to keep a second gas car for long trips. This is the first round of plug in kits, I can see the kits going to $6000 in a year or two. Nothing else except the Tango really has sparked my interest.

TO be honest if I had the cash I would get a TZero.
It seems to be the model to beat.

GM decision to build prototype mass-production EV on current technology was strange at best. Like trying to produce supersonic aircraft powered by piston engine. Only appearance of powerful and durable NiMh battery opened possibility to build successful gasoline-electric hybrid, which was done by Toyota/Honda. Still with all modern battery and power electronics improvements mass production PHEV is visible only on the horizon, let alone pure EV. For niche applications, such as city delivery vehicle, EV is very appealing and makes sense.
However, two billion dollars GM spent developing EV1 probably was not total loss. Many developed technologies, such as electrically assisted steering and braking, or heat pump HVAC, are currently widely used on variety of vehicles worldwide.

Roger,

Sorry but Orbital in fact produced and ran quite successfully a wet sumped two stroke inline 6 cylinder engine. Very nice stuff. As usual, fashion had swung away from this technology with the biggies by the time the had it sorted.

As for small engines, so far I have not seen anything beat the 2S DI engine for fuel economy. The issue of tailpipe (not engine out) emissions is more complex.

My ideal small engine for low specific fuel consuption would be a 500cc single cylinder direct injected two stroke with catalytic after treatment. An engine like this would get down to 260g/kWh at 11kw. It would also be flexible unough to direct drive the 90 - 110km/h range needed for good fuel consuption (one of it's strengths is part load specific fuel consumption). An engine like this would weight not more than 15kg with fuel system and can be mounted anyway and with any orientation.

air cooled for simplicity and weight reduction. As for durability, loaded in this manner, 1000+ hours are certainly doable with no great effort.

It also has very low engine out emmissions on warm up, so is highly suitable to intermitent use and is inherently drive by wire without expensive external control mechanisms.

long term emissions durability has been demonstrated by Orbital on numerous occasions.

Downsides - Total loss lubrification (could be seen as a plus dpending on how you look at it) - goes against mainstreem trends - old style immage of two stroke.

So there you have it! Flames / comments?

Mike

PS i think that the E smart is a wonderful idea. Sure the are dabbling with low spec / volume and high price, but they are also learning a buisness in an ideal niche market. I'm sure they will have a winner. Running costs will be on par with a standard Smart when taking into account the London charges.

The seeds of change have been sown. we are seeing the first shoots tentatively pushing their way above ground.

Battery : MES-DEA / ZEBRA Nickel Sodium Chloride

The free parking in London is stupid. People who drive in that city are idiots, I know I was.
Instead of spending money on making parking spaces for rich peoples toys they should put it into public transport.

The SmartEv is a good idea, we have been working on it for a while. Batteries are the issue. Cannot put enough lead into a Smart for long range (40+ miles), and the Lithium/Nicads put the car into another price range. The SmartEv is alot of fun to drive!
There are a few solutions for US and Canada for EVs.

Peter

Lensovet - the Happy Messenger in the GCC article carried a retail price of $10K. The XS200 carries a price of $28.5K. I don't think they are the same car.

Confirmed - looking at the specs side by side, the Happy Messenger is the same as the ZX40, except for the battery. The HM was spec-ed with a NiMH battery, the ZX40 has a lead-acid battery.

Andrey, interesting; pleased that someone, other than myself, has heard of Orbital's work.
Any thoughts on my basic approach, that of a small engine set at a single optimal speed, whose only purpose is powering the battery set, which, in turn, power the car. This engine would be on, or off, depending on the battery level and the auto's current power usage.
I appreciate Lensovet's point, the loss of power converting to electricity, thus the advantages of some level of direct drive from motor to car, but wonder about the other efficiencies to be gained with my approach, including the engine efficiency operating at 'best' speed, the weight efficiencies from not requiring all the gear associated with direct drive and from a smaller engine and from ......
Any thoughts, from anyone ?
Andrey, would the 500cc single cylinder...you spoke of, be your engine of choice for this application ?
Flames/comments...

To add to above, the savings in mfg when a direct drive is not required..
Does the Mazda / wankel rotary style engine have anything special to offer re a power plant for the mfr of electricity only ?
Just more questions - any answers ?
Thanks all.

hamer, no. look at the motors, they are nowhere even close. look at the top speed. come on, the battery is not the only difference.
the GCC HM Motor rated power/peak power (kW) 20 / 60
the ZX40 - 4 / 8
also look at the max grade for this car, GCC >20%, ZX40 15% MAX.
the batteries aren't the only thing that's different.
as for the XS200, they say "Powered by breakthrough Chinese Lithium-Ion technology, the Miles XS200 has an anticipated speed of up to 80 miles per hour and a range of 200 miles."
compare this to the GCC HM: battery type: NiMH, max speed: 62 mph, range: 150 mi. So, essentially, the GCC HM is nonexistent, the ZX40 is a NEV, and the XS200 will be the "next generation", so to speak. there you go.

What about the TWIKE?
Weihgs 220 kg, top speed of 80km/hr and drives for about 100 km
2 persons

Has been sold as a kit in the US
Its too expensive because it is hand made

Ultra light weight is the way to go forward. Forget fossil fuel car copies.
Electric powers cars should be designed completely new.

There is no major problem in importing a Solectria into Canada . This is simply because the VIN number on the Solectria says it's a 4cylinder Geo Metro. Import regs all seem to be based on VIN numbers

$690 for SMART lease,what people wanna get rich overnite? Good Luck

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I live in Canada. I don't own a car.
I live in a relatively-isolated major city and use public transit almost exclusively, with occasional use of a fuel-powered vehicle.
I made a decision a while ago that I wasn't going to even consider owning a car until they got smaller, cheaper, produced far less pollution and had far better fuel economy.

I don't need a vehicle for daily commutes or even city driving - what all of the electric vehicles currently being built are geared for - because local public transit, while sometimes inconvenient, is more than sufficient to get me around.
What I really need a vehicle for is the occasional transport of goods/people within/just outside of the city and road trips to/from the beach in the summertime. It's about an 160 km round trip to the beach. Most of the highway is not paved. The highway speed is 100 km/h maximum (I often cruise @ 80 - 90 km/h).

Say I were able to walk into a store today and finance a brand new completely electrical/plug-in car.
From what I can tell by looking at the various details, no electrical car on the market today or in the near future would meet my transport needs or come at a cost that I could even remotely afford.

I figure this is what the technology should be aiming for and NOT short city commutes, which could be taken care of by investing in beefed-up public transit infrastructure, hybrid high-capacity busses, etc.

Chris,

Randy Holmquist at canev.com in BC, Canada sells conversion kits for, amongst others, the Geo Metro. I am currently contemplating converting a Geo Metro Convertible using one of his kits. Take a look at the site if you ever contemplate a diy Canadian ev.