Amazing
Anything Toyata does is good and GM bad
SUV and pickup trucks are what people wanted No demand
and they dont sell (like right know )as far as the auto workers working in the us 8 out of ten still work for the big three. and crapy comparisions, like the dodge verse the corolla. Apples and orages not everone wants to drive a shoe box. it's a shame people become so bias they cant see.

kevin,

Your bias is blinding you to the point I'm making to Richard. I wouldn't buy a hybrid because I save money (his argument against my lamentations for a hybrid version of the upcoming Dodge Avenger). I could have said neon but those are not available anymore and the numbers still stay close to the same. It has a lower price and worse fuel consumption than the Corolla (the corolla that was available at the same time as the neon...the current Corolla has advanced further).

Ron, what did you think of the Cavalier available at the same time as the EV-1 as far as the interior goes? The interior of the Cavalier felt as cheap as most cars in that class but seemed closer to the quality of a Hyundai rather than other makes.

Actauly a fuel cell car and a plug in hybrid are exactly alike. Both run full power with an eltric motor. Both store the energy for that in a protected compartment that is stored low in the car between the wheels. In fact the fuel cell car HAS a pack of batteries in it already.

Now I cant use such a car bcause rates here skyrocke the more poewrer you use and a car like this would push me into the 25 cent per kw range. And alot of oether people are in that situation.

I'm so glad that GM is finally realizing that the reason that they are having such huge losses of late is due to "putting all the eggs" in the humongous SUV's basket. Time to diversify, for optimal risk management.
FCV-hybrid and PHEV-FCV hybrid are very closely related and can be built in the same platform, with the same drive train, and even in the same assembly lines. FCV-hybrid requires a large fuel-cell stack and a smaller battery. PHEV-FCV hybrid requires a much smaller fuelcell stack but a much larger battery pack. The main dilemma is that the large compressed H2 tank must be reduced in size to accommodate the much larger Li-ion battery back in order to make it a PHEV. Range on H2 may be compromised

A safer bet is for GM to join Ford, BMW and Sandia Lab to build H2-ICE-electric hybrid with plug-in potential. In this way, to extend the range of the car, one just have to fill up the H2 tank with natural gas in order to triple the vehicle's range. ICE technology is much more mature and much more proven than FC technology, hence far less risky than FC. Again, optimal risk management is the key to survival.

Adam,
H2 is an energy currency just like electricity, at about equal overall efficiency. Any combustible fuels can be easily reformed into H2, just like any renewable energy souces can be used to produce H2, at equal efficiency to electricity generation. With H2-vehicle, you have much faster charging (fill-up) time, and you don't have the heavy weight, cost, durability and performance problem in very cold weather associated with current battery technology.

"It's possible to make a safe, very lightweight vehicle, using modern materials and techniques."

There is a huge and growing demand for such vehicles. The demand is not being met, IMO, because the industry is way over regulated. There should be thousands of independent builders and suppliers. There are very few because it is not easy to legalize any vehicle. I suggest a tax and regulatory exemption for vehicles that get 50+ miles per gallon. New suppliers would jump in overnight.

I just saw a news story of a guy who built a legal,light weight three wheeler in Maine. He wanted to build a four wheeler but could not bear the burden of the extra regulations that were required.

General Motors hates America. (that's the best explanation I can come up with...)

Anything Toyata does is good and GM bad

Told ya, everyone. Happens EVERY time.

Whiners...

Lutz has been sniffing exhaust fumes.

GM and Ford are making inferior trucks and SUV, not to mention cars. What make you guys think that their hybrids or whatever will be competitive?

Thanks jw for the post on Bob Lutz, very scary. He sounds like a tobacco executive perpetuating myths in an attempt to disguise an immoral standpoint.

Now we’re supposed to believe he’s suddenly seen the light, oh please. He must be grooming for politics.

Gm makes work trucks the sideline into general public trucks was just to make money off a fad. As such none of the ups and downs od the general car market have ever effected thier commercial truck lines.

Gm wants toi fire off ALOT of american workers as it transitions to china.

As for the plug in car. Most all the companies said they werent planning on making one. They said this because 1 They didnt have a motor for it. 2They didnt have a pattery pack to power that motor.3 They didnt have the numbers as to how to set everything so such a car would actauly work.

However batteries have changed a small pack can now provide alot more power output even if it cant provide a whole lot more total power. 2 The motors strong enough to move the car at speed and CHEAP and LIGHT enough to use are now being made. 3 They now know more about how to keep some nitwit from blowing up his car.

And finaly hey have found a large enough tho still rather small market of people willing to by a car for alot more that doesnt actauly do alot more as long as its TRUELY green.

That market wasnt of critical mass back when they tried out ev cars the first time. Its now large enough to use as a marketing pr blitz that if not breakin even doesnt break the bank.

Mr. Lutz is pretty much saying that, after 10 years, if it's feasable, we may start mass producing hydrogen cars. I'm a cynic, and whenever someone says a gee-whiz technology is at least 10 years out, I don't think they know what they're talking about. There are still a lot of technical challenges remaining to hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, and any one of them could torpedo the plan.

Research is good, but this is a PR stunt.

Mike

Patrick: If PHEV's hit the market in any kind of numbers it won't be a big deal to add some wire and regular sockets to parking garages. New buildings will probably be built with fast recharge wiring.

As for Lutz .. proofs in action.
If he's BSing GM dies ... good ridance.
If he's sincere ... good luck GM.

Me: hopefully I take delivery of my electric scooter today (200km @ 50kph)

The act of adding wiring is trivial.

The act of getting apartment and condominium property owners/management to install the wiring? very non-trivial. They fight tooth and nail against any such "regulations" just as Freedom Fighter does. Even if such wiring installation is offered free of charge to the real estate owners they will balk at it (unless there is pressure from an overwhelming majority of the tenants because a small segment of tenants are easily replaced if they move).

Hmmm, I remember a certain late 70s era Ford with an improperly developed gasoline tank having issues with being rear-ended...yeah, lets remove all regulations! I remember seeing Los Angeles in the 70s and 80s before EPA REGULATIONS were really in force (you know, mandating O2 sensors & catalytic convertors)...yeah, lets remove all regulations!

It won't take regulations to get the wires in the garage. Once the ratio of PHEV owners becomes high enough it will happen. It will be a selling feature in new buildings and eventually the older buildings will retrofit to catch up. I live in a 110 year old house but I have plumbing and electricity. (I know, I know, by european standards that's brand new)

"I could buy a condo but I'd be in the same predicament: no ability to charge up any type of battery powered vehicle..."
Patrick, Patrick, Patrick...
Don't people have extension cords where you are from? You don't need $500,000 to buy a home in Englewood, you can just plug in a PHEV to an existing outlet via an extension cord.

Most people can't recharge at home (think apartments, street parking etc).

That's why the BIGGEST fan of plug-in hybrids is....

...Walmart

....and every mall in the country.

They're desperate for the chance to have you plug-in while you shop. It's just such a neat fit, you need to park'n'charge for 20 minutes, they want you to be in the shops to sell you stuff for 20 minutes. AND they can get the money that Shell/Esso/BP would have had you spending on gasoline.

This is what Shell/Esso/BP etc are really worried about and why they are so desperate to convince you that the world needs hydrogen.

"I could buy a condo but I'd be in the same predicament: no ability to charge up any type of battery powered vehicle..."

Why don't you move somewhere where you don't have to live like that? America is a big country, you don't have to live in New York or LA.

Actauly the biggest slowdown in plug in and hybrid cars was the fear that somehow someway a car would go supernova and incinerate a crowd of people. Its not that they dont expect that to happen its that they expect to make enough money to pay the lawyers;/

And lets face facts most of us are waiting for the first car to FOOOOOM! Just because we wonder exactly what a big ass statck if lithium batteries going off will look like.

And AGAIN its not as if biofuels and pure ev cars can handle the entire world.

Patrick:

The garage parking place in our new condo comes equipped with 115 VAC and 220 VAC outlets for PHEVs/BEVs/Vacuum etc (as an option at relatively low installation cost).

This feature could easily be added in existing condo for about $500 per parking place. This is really cheap, on a 10 or 20+ year time frame.

Wal-Mart, most shopping center/places and parking lots will find a way to make money with their recharge stations. Why not....

A parking garage would be great but the city I live in is not a "big" city, just expensive. Most condos and apartments don't have parking garages unless I move directly downtown (more expensive, smaller, and further from work). An extension cord hanging out the second story window is a great way for kids to pull on it or trip, get a notice because I'm violating the lease I signed, and exacerbate my winter heating bills (unless I install a permanent solution by drilling through the wall and using some weather resistant silicone to seal it but then I'd be violating the lease again). In fact the city I live in has a population of just over 100,000 (but our annual retail sales is equivalent to a nearby county of 1,000,000).

Lets see I could get a new job and move out of state but then I'd never see my children. I could get a new job in state but an equivalent job (my area of expertise, similar wages, and a job that is just as enjoyable) will be basically in the same city or one of the nearby sister cities and that helps not at all. Then it seems I am being told I should move 20 miles away where I can buy a nice house with a garage for the same price as a condo just so I can plug in a PHEV to reduce gasoline usage? That doesn't seem logical (I live 1.4 miles from my work and walk on any day I don't need to drive to the store for groceries or to school to pick up the kids).

I think the best option would be to wait for new condo installations to spring up that offer covered parking with an outlet. Then I just have to make sure no one "steals" my electricity [if I have to pay for it]. The condos of reasonable size (can't fit 2 kids in a studio) with a parking garage run about $400-$1000 per square foot otherwise they are in typical apartment layout with numbered lots in a big parking area.

I don't see an electrical outlet being a selling feature of apts/condos/multi-family dwellings until PHEV market penetration is atleast 20% or more (well maybe 10% penetration would suffice where I live).

Dude, if you're worried about "filling up with electricity" it's going to be the same deal as filling up with hydrogen when they make that leap. There's all sorts of innovations that can fix it... like an extra plug in battery in your trunk that you exchange for a full one for a fee at a gas station (or once they're gone, a Wal Mart). That's all in the future, of course. Now if you're worried about next week or when plug ins are sold, a hybrid still gathers waste energy for good mileage, it just won't be as good as if you were to plug it in. Maaybe you could put some solar panels on your trunk or something. ;)

Do you guys have crow in Europe? It will be quite satisfying to watch you eat some of it.

I find this emotional discussion highly irrelevant. To begin with, there is no single production PHEV even in production plans. And never will be. What will be offered from the very beginning of PHEV age is hybrid car with very limited PHEV capabilities (couple of hours charge from regular socket, 10-20 miles of around-town gentle driving) in small numbers. Harvey D. will be among first buyers. Potential market for such vehicle is huge – no less then 60% Americans live in private houses, and most of them have at least two vehicles per family. It will take at least two decades of aggressive sales to saturate this market. Note, that couple of major utility companies are installing smart electricity meters right now, disregard to PHEV prospectives. These meters allow to recharge PHEV at night at lowest electricity rates just with 5-dollars timer addition. Meanwhile PHEV technology will progress to the state of high-performance PHEV. In that timeframe we will have such huge surplus of electricity production, that electricity salesmen will run after every PHEV with offers of discount recharge on the run.

Patrick, EV-1 interior was 'on par' but nothing special. Yep, just like the wunnerful Cavalier. At the time GM was conflicted about whether EV-1 leasees would be offended by leather (heh heh!). Build quality on the EV-1 I leased was very good. Nothing askew, missing or out of place. Miles above any GM rentals I tried during the same time. Even 'new' rentals.

Regarding LIon fires: If you're concerned about that, consider it is nothing compared to the drama of breeching a 10,000 psi hydrogen tank. With gasoline or LIon you have a chance of running away...