Yeah, Lorenzo, thanks for that link to the WTW and WTT study from the EU. We need more of those kinds of things to compare the pluses and minuses of the different option paths. It's certainly better than the old "my solution is better than your solution and in fact solves everything by itself" back-and-forth that there's far too much of here.

There's no silver bullet.

As a former hydrogen fan, I note the irony of people who dream that popular hydrogen motoring will come in a few decades, seemingly unaware that hydrogen cars existed decades ago. Look up the Hydrogen Car Timeline.

No-one ever buys one; not even if, like the governor of California, they are very rich and have undertaken to do so. Much of the current enthusiasm seems to be from people supported by gasoline taxes, which is to say, from people for whom hydrogen cars' supposedly expected success would be bad financial news.

Why do they spend millions on h2...? Might as well ask why they spend millionson basicaly a slightly different twinkie or ho ho or soda or or or or.

Because this is a world of over 6billion people and the day we agree on anything is the day after our robot overlords freeze us in carbonite and put us up as decorations.

Lorenzo et al,
I've looked at the WTW efficiency report, and can't make much out of it because the prints are so small and so unclear that I can't tell which from which. That website is for do-it-yourselfers who wanted to make biofuel in their backyard, and as such, biogas was championed. Have you looked at the article about "wood gas" in GCC here many weeks ago,which featured a WWII-era car that carried a gasifer in the back, and you put wood or charcoal into the gasifier which heats it up and produce combustible gas to run the car's engine? The gas is of course syngas, a mixture of H2 and CO. What does that tells you? That it is just as easy or even easier to produce H2 by gasification of biomass as biogas fermentation in your backyard. An intra-city gasification-electricity co-generation plant can produce H2 from various carbon-based feedstocks, depending on which would be most available, and generate electricity via steam turbine from the waste heat of the gasification process. Is it hard to transport biomass to a gasification plant? The answer is NO. There was also a recent article on GCC which discussed the feasibility of importing waste biomass from other parts of the world and transport it into Europe to be gasified into fuel products. The ash and other residue from the gasification process represents minerals that can be reprocessed and sold as part of fertilizer and other industrial raw materials.

Of course, biogas (methane) is also highly valuable as a transportation fuel, because an ICE can be designed to run on both methane and H2, and H2 in a mixture of ~ 20% volume with methane (NaturalHy)will enhance the ignition of methane which is much less ignitable than gasoline or hydrogen, thereby rendering higher efficiency. H2 injection can also enhance the efficiency of diesel engines also. Methane has 3x the volumetric energy density of H2, so a H2-car can go 3x further on methane in the same tank at the same pressure.

But, if you have a surplus of electricity and a source of waste heat and you wanna make H2 or methane via Solid Oxide High Temp electrolysis, then, guess what? H2 is the most efficient to make, whereas, if you wanna make methane out of the same process, you will need to add CO2, beside H2O, into the electrolyzer and you will pay a 30% energy efficiency penalty for making methane. So, it pays to modify existing ICE-HEV to be able to run on both H2 and methane gaseous fuels for that reason.

There is nothing wrong with BEV and PHEV, either, if the recent promises in advance battery technologies will deliver. In fact the surplus energy from wind and solar energy can be most efficiently used to charge BEV's and PHEV's. But, one must not dismiss H2 as an equally-efficient and viable transportation fuel that can be implemented TODAY using existing technologies. H2-ICE-HEV will lead the way with 45% efficiency, to be followed by H2-FCV's at 60% efficiency. At that efficiency level, no matter where the H2 is derived from, it will beat gasoline cars at or below 20% efficiency.

The bulkiness of transporting compressed H2 is has an unintended advantage of forcing car mfg's to strive hard for as much fuel efficiency as possible in order to have sufficient range to please the customer. This is better than any current or future CAFE regulation, or gasoline tax, etc...etc... Just look at the GM Sequel, a H2-powered SUV capable of the equivalence of 50 mpg. Now, how many current GM's gasoline powered SUV's, or even diesel powered SUV can come anywhere close to this mpg figure? NONE!!!

Folks, the Feds ain't gonna do diddly squat about raising CAFE to any meaningful level, nor will any politicians risk their electability to do anything about raising the gasoline tax. But, if Calif. CARB will stick to their gun (and other states will follow suit) about requiring increasing percentage of cars produced to be ZEV (Zero Emission Vehicles-meaning no hydrocarbon-cars), ZEV's can be either electric cars or H2-ICE-HEV or H2-FCV's, we will see car efficiency rising through the roof, courtesy of the bulkiness of H2, Ha ha ha!!! H2-cars and BEV's and PHEV's can co-exist, folks. No need to be hostile toward H2-vehicles.

G.R.L. Cowan, former H2 fan,
Perhaps I can help you regain your faith...Uh...in H2, that is! The reason that Hydrogen car did not succeed before was that the technologies for FCV's was in their embryonic stages before, until just now. Likewise, high-efficiency HEV's like the Prius did not exist before. So, since H2 is so bulky to carry around, range isn't good and no one has bought it, for obvious reason, until car efficiency can be elevated to the level possible with recent technologies.

But, if CARB is successful in mandating increasing percentage of cars to be ZEV's, and other metropolitan areas will follow suit, with laws requiring every gas station in metropolitan areas capable of delivering H2...AND...if H2 will be sold per kg for less than gasoline per gallon...AND if the people realize that their car can travel two to three times farther for the same money spent on fuel...then...Watchout! A H2-capable car may be available at your local car dealers someday within our lifetime!!!

Roger Pham says, "if H2 will be sold per kg for less than gasoline per gallon...AND if the people realize that their car can travel two to three times farther for the same money spent on fuel...then...Watchout!"

Watch out, indeed! But if you look at hydrogen FCEVs that have fallen into journalists' hands, they seem to have high hopes of 20 percent efficiency, tank to DC terminals. Hydrogen burners were better 30 years ago.

Er ... let's try that again. High hopes.

I was happy to find it!
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