Correction again: ignore above correction. 5.3 bars raised to the 4th power will give 789 bars, not psi!. 8000 psi /14.7= 544 bars. This will need only four stages of 4.8 compression ratio each. (4.8^4 = 530 bars) Again sorry for the mistake above!

Roger - "It is impractical to compress to 800 bars using single stage compressor. 800 bars is over 10,000 psi (14.7 x 800=11,760 psi) . The heat generated would melt ...."

Righhhhhht! - So all this is easier, cheaper and more efficient than a solid state battery, that you can buy today, driving an AC controller, that you can also buy today, that drives an AC electric motor, again available right now, charging at home from your present electric socket or a 3 phase one that you can install today? I don't think so.

True batteries, electric motors and controllers and even cars can be branded however a battery electric drive has only one major moving part - the motor. AC induction motors are in use in the millions and are extremely reliable and maintenance free. There is no oil to change no cooling system to service and no tune ups to do. We do not know how the nano scale lithium batteries will work out however that will be proven in the future. When you can charge your car from home you do not visit a branded shop where you are tempted to buy all the other things that really make money. Large energy corporations very existence is at stake here - small wonder why they are fighting so hard for a product they can sell and brand.

Fuel cell cars will have all this as fuel cells do not do high currents very well and will need the full battery electric drive train anyway. AltairNano batteries might well be better than ultracaps so Honda's mass production fuel cell car will probably use them anyway. Then you want to put in a fuel cell with pumps and fans and coolers which will all require maintenance. Add to this a 800 bar tank with sensors and valves adds up to supporting a large maintenance industry that is in danger from the simplicity and reliability of battery electric cars.

And yet you have yet to articulate one single advantage of a hydrogen car over a battery electric car.

Ender,

Thanks for sharing your enthusiasm regarding recent development in battery technologies. I, too, feel very excited regarding the future of BEV and PHEV.

Yet, at the same time, I feel equally excited regarding the future of H2 as a super clean and renewable transportation fuel for automotive, aviation, and marine usage. It is simply my wish to share this excitement regarding H2 to the GCC forum.

BEV and H2V have different advantages and disadvantages. Smaller vehicles will do well with battery due to the lower co$t of the smaller battery pack, which will charge up faster with the 220v 40amp max available at home. Larger vehicles will be more economical with H2, since the larger H2 tank and larger engine won't cost that much more than a smaller version, and can be filled up in minutes. H2-engine would best be in the form of turbo-diesel with direct H2 injection and multi-mode operation, with ultra-lean and cool combustion at cruise to maximize thermal efficiency. With limited-temperature and pressure cycle as regulated by direct H2 injection by piezoinjector, the engine will be just as reliable or even more than diesel engines today, without the high NOx level, and no PM. At high H2 pressure, there is no need for an expensive fuel pump or high pressure diesel injector, no need for PM filter. NOx trap can be a lot smaller, if any NOx production would be present above regulated limit. These are the engines of large trucks, trains and even boats. Aviation will use liquid H2 in a much lighter airframe for a given amount of payload.

H2 can be produced from gasification of waste biomass, or coal very efficiently and at low cost. Solar and wind electricity can effiently be use to generate H2 using high-temp electrolysis process using waste heat from power plants or concentrated solar heat. More efficient and low cost means for H2 will include direct photo-electrolysis of water using sunlight directly that now is under experimental stage. High-growth algae fed with high CO2 concentration can also be turned into H2 economically.

Our energy future will be bright if we all can recognize different promising paths toward clean, renewable and secure energy supply, and push for changes from the status quo. Let's not put all the eggs in one basket.

Ender
I think you are comparing the complexity of generation of hydrogen to the complexity of the vehicle. Roger was documenting the requirements to create the hydrogen, not the storage or utilization requirements (which admittedly are their own kettle of fish). As for advantages, the lure of hydrogen is as a portable fuel that produces no carbon compounds at the usage end and can be stored in an infrastructure (tanks, pipes, hose connections, etc.) with which the average consumer is familiar. The quantity available in a vehicle is easily measured, the storage tank is just a tank, and the fuel companies get to keep their profit methodology and existence. Now pure electrical may be technologically superior in every way, but if you think big oil is going down without the political fight of the millennium, guess again. A car that can be plugged in at any old outlet might sound like (and be) the best of all possible worlds, but it will be opposed with every Dollar, Euro, Ruble, Rand, Yuan, Riyal, Yen, and Dinar that the international oil companies can get their hands on. Conservation they approve of because that lets them stretch out their supplies and guarantees future profits, but take away there entire operating and profit method and you are in for the political fight of your life. The oil companies might be willing to trade selling oil for selling hydrogen or some other fuel, but they are not going to lose the entire marketplace to home charging, unless they get to buy up all the electrical companies first, and the DOJ and SEC might just take a dim anti-trust view if the leading fuel producers (Shell, Exxon, BP, etc.) started buying up all the electrical companies. So for the moment hydrogen power is a good bone to throw them while the improvements to batteries and electrical systems reach the point where I can get 300 miles per charge, and run my car through stop and go as well as 40 highway miles a day and enjoy the AC in summer, the heat in winter, and listen to my tunes.
Oh yea and do it for about 20,000$ per car cause that’s all the little white collar workers like me can really afford. Then we start selling them into the market slowly and hit them with a done deal
That's what reality looks like to me anyway.

Larry

Actauly getting a gas to 10kpsi is the easy part they already have been doing that for a long time. Storing it was tricky. WAS .They now have tanks that can hold the slippery bugger just fine for quite a while with low seepage.

They dont even realy have a generation problem because there SALREADY are alot of places where geneerated h2 is cheaper then gasoline.

So whats the hold up?

There ia a huge difference between making a car people will buy and making a car that will make you rich.. or in this case making h2 that will make you rich.

This stage is moreabout ensuring the wealth trather then making it work. It works its just not a money maker yet.

Unlike the ev car what you have here is a trillion dollar industry making its first plodding steps.

wintermane,

"So whats the hold up?"

Larry has a good point. There's still a lot of oil out there, and somebody with a lot of political clout and money is making a lot of money off of it! That's the hold up, wintermane. Plus, there's a thing called inertia, also. Without a strong motive or incentive to switch toward a hydrogen economy, why bother?

Unless the public and the government recognize the fact that it's very important to slow down global warming as much as possible NOW...and another important fact that our petroleum supply is not that secure...and that Hydrogen produced from all types of renewable energy sources would stand the greatest chance to halt further fossil CO2 release into the atmosphere...then most likely, AIN'T NUTHIN' GONNA HAPPEN ANYTIME SOON! The future of our children be d*mned.

What about BEV, and ethanol, and biodiesel etc... BEV would be great but there won't be enough raw material to propel billions of autos to come, using current battery technologies. Ethanol from grain consumes too much energy to produce it, and ethanol from cellulose is so far still too expensive and nowhere certain. Plus, once a car is adapted to run on gasoline and ethanol, then how do make it run from solar or wind or nuclear electricity? Biodiesel is the same way. A diesel car can only run on diesel fuel, period.
But a car capable of H2 and CNG (ICE-HEV)can run indirectly from energy from all sources: NG, coal, waste biomass, algae biomass, solar and wind and hydro and nuclear energy...even future fusion energy as well. No matter what is the predominant energy in any particular region, a can that can run on H2 and CNG can take advantage of them all.

Once the infrastructure is adapted to power hydrogen-CNG vehicles, there will never any need to change the infrastructure again! ever!
The same would be true for BEV and PHEV once batteries can be made from cheap and abundant materials in large quantity at low cost, with high energy density with respect to both mass and volume, that will be competitive with H2 storage density of the future.

Its not oil slowing h2 its he h2 companies sticking to a long term plan and not caring a wit what anyone says about it.

Yes some parts of the industry are trying to jump start and fast start thingsbut overall the major players have stuck to thier timeline like accountants. And that makes a ton of sense as thats likely whats running the timeline in the first place.

AB, do your comments still apply if the hydrogen system is a hydrogen-on-demand one, like Ecotality's Hydratus?

EcoWriter

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Why not liquid air,it weigs 60 lbs per cubic foot,Gets the milage of about 1 gallon of gas in a internal combustion engine and is GREEN-Green.Compressed to about 8000 PSI.
Thank You
Jay

Why not liquid air,it weigs 60 lbs per cubic foot,Gets the milage of about 1 gallon of gas in a internal combustion engine and is GREEN-Green.Compressed to about 8000 PSI.
Thank You
Jay

Why not liquid air,it weigs 60 lbs per cubic foot,Gets the milage of about 1 gallon of gas in a internal combustion engine and is GREEN-Green.Compressed to about 8000 PSI.
Thank You
Jay

Commisioner of Patents
Provisional patent.
P.O.Box 1450
Alexandria ,Va 22313-1450

jay19482000@yahoo.com
http://www.wateredu.com

A camshaft made that would fit in the existing cam area of an internal combustion engine
That would open the exhaust valve to drivethe piston down with pressure and the intake valve to exhaust air as the piston comes up and vice versa,the oil viscosity lowered,air put into the exhust manifold and vented from theintake manifold or vice versa .An iternal combustion engine could be run off of air.Pressure in the tank would be 8000 PSI with a regulator to lower it to 1000PSI.
Thank You
Jay

To make camshaft based up on the combustion cycle
2 lobes for each existing lobe or double the rpm of the cam shaft. and grind down the intake cam
Intake lobe to be .010 in with 6 degrees of rotation opening

Exhaust same lobe structure

At 500 psi the opening would be a lobe .010 in 12 degrees rotation.
A cubic foot of liquid air has about the energy of a gallon of gas and weighs 60 lbs.

can i use this article as a reference for my biology paper we're trying to think of better fuel solutions

the economy is right to sell big ticket items