100k miles for NiMH in a HEV app is very real. As to an EV app, well, probably not.

Explain to me something Wayne, why is there no potesting of Coal used for energy? hmmm... as to Wayne's statement of "world climate change & the future of this world"

well... you need to review one of the board members and controlling interst in ECD, which is the parent company of Cobasys (http://www.ovonic.com) => Stanford Ovshinsky.

I would call him anything other than 'for the world and saving it from it's own excesses.'

Rich is correct in that NiMH used in HEV only cycle a maximum of 40% SOC & generally operate within a very narrow 15% SOC most of the time so, in a setup like my Prius, it is very likely going to go 300,000 miles minimum.

There are plenty of RAV4 EVs out there that have exceeded 100K miles with the original Toyota or PEVE 95Ah OEM NiMH so, yes the technology for 100K+ miles sits quite securely within NiMH technology like Cobasys & PEVE offer.

As for speaking up against coal plants; there are two issues that come to mind. First, EV usage, even from coal fired plants is cleaner than using petroleum products; I give the latest details of this in the next paragraph. Secondly, we have a lot of coal & if we use CO₂sequesteration we can make it much cleaner however, until we implement sequestering it can help us get away from the many troubles that importing oil seems to foster.

In a nutshell, the latest studies show that PHEVs reduce CO₂ by 37%-67% compared to modern ICE (Internal Combustion Engine). HEVs reduce CO₂ by 19%-54% over ICE. Pure EVs reduce CO₂ by 11%-100% compared with ICEs and by 24%-54% compared with HEVs, and significantly reduce all other greenhouse gas emissions, using the U.S. electrical grid mix as it sits today (Jan 2007). If all U.S. cars were EVs, we’d reduce global warming emissions. Using electricity strictly from coal, EVs still would reduce CO2 by 0%-59% compared with ICEs (one analysis found 0% change; six others found reductions of 17%-59%) and might produce 30%-49% more CO2 than HEVs (based on only two analyses). On the other hand, if electricity comes from solar or wind power, EVs eliminate all emissions. Using natural gas to make electricity, emissions fall in between those from coal and renewable power.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying in your last sentence but, I am quite familiar with Stanford Ovshinsky; he is IMHO a very good man with dreams similar to my own. His wife recently passed away & she too was well beyond admirable. Stan, IMO had his hands tied almost as soon as he got into a partnership with GM. GM invested in Ovonic pretty heavily back in the early years & things in the NiMH part of Stan’s businesses have not been very fun for him ever since. Knowing this history is why I am worried for A123. Not only did A123 partner with Cobasys but now they are jointly getting back into bed with GM ---- details of partnership & agreements with GM are not being made public --- Stan et al developed & invested heavily in Solar Cell technology not too many years back. I haven’t checked up on that venture for quite a while but, I think that part of his businesses is doing well & has quite a bit of hope. If I recall, he was having some decent successes getting his solar products distributed amongst the Nordic nations.

I must be getting old... I forgot to respond to your question about the voltage of NiMH system in my car. I actually have 24.5 Ah because I put my 18Ah in parallel with the OEM 6.Ah... The nominal voltage is 201.6 VDC.

Toyota's HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive) BMS (Battery Management System) keeps the overall voltage hovering around 220-230 VDC most of the time.

Taking the average hovering VDC of 225 VDC X 24.5Ah means I am usually packing about 5.5kWh. However only 2.2Ah maximum is actually usable per charge-discharge cycle.

Causing the charge cycle to run between 15-40% usages allows the Toyota or PEVE NiMH to exceed 10,000 cycles vs. maybe 800-1000 cycles if the NiMH were to run cycles in the 60-80% SOC range like a pure EV might need to do.

Thanks Rich and
Thanks again Wayne for your detailed response. Since I am a numbers person I noticed that 2.2 Ah out of 24.5 is 9% which does not seem to jive with your 15 - 40% number.
Please do not feel obligated to explain because you have already been generous with facts.

Let's all hope that eestor's product is at least 50% of what it claims to be.

Hi Rick,

You are correct; I was trying to get the answers out too quickly. Once you start working within an unchanging voltage range your mind starts modularizing & applying weight & sizing in Ah rather than kWh. That should have been 2.2kWh. I apologize.

In rereading my post this morning I also noticed that I put 60-80% SOC on the last line of my last post above. Although that is not entirely incorrect, it would have been better to say 60-80% DOD (Depth of Discharge).

DOD is often confused or misused so; I will offer the following definition for those not familiar with battery terminology:

Depth of discharge (DOD) is defined as the level to which battery voltage is taken during discharge. For instance, 100 percent DOD means that the battery voltage has been taken down to the lowest level recommended by suppliers. Twenty percent DOD means that 20 percent of the battery capacity has been removed. This level of DOD is often referred to as a shallow discharge. Discharging to less than the recommended voltage is known as over-discharge. The shallower the discharge, the more cycles the battery will provide. This is true for all battery chemistries.

Good Morning on a wonderful Monday Wayne,

I brought up Stan's name to partially debunk your conspiracy theory about Cobasys. As ECD owns 50% of Cobasys, there is not a controlling interest by Big Oil of Cobasys. Since Stan is on the board of ECD, I can only assume that he is also on the board of Cobasys.

ECD's solar efforts are going wonderfully, since they are getting ready to open a 3rd solar panel manufacturing plant in Michigan this year I believe.

I do NOT believe he is trying to kill or stifle the market as you insinuated in your original statement about conspiracies. Look at the track record of Cobasys and I would say that they are trying to win the market for the batteries against a power house trifecta from Japan of the Toyota/MEI/PEVE, which is siginficantly bigger than ECD/Cobasys even with the backing of Chevon, they came to the game significantly behind.

Yes it would be nice if everyone could just get along, but that is not the reality of the world and most of it's inhabitants, even Stan.

Anyhow, great discussion and I too hope EEStor and Testla Motors succeed in their endevours as it can only help the world.

Good morning Rich,

I don't think Stan himself ever wanted to 'stifle' the distribution of his NiMH technology. I feel that he has been pushed into a corner that leaves him no choice but allow what has happened or completely lose his property rights.

I have simply exposed a fact that neither you nor anyone else will ever be able to ‘debunk.’ The fact is that since 2004 Cobasys has suppressed the use of NiMH technology. There might be a lot of different reasons as to why but, the fact remains that it has happened & it appears that in some level or another it will continue to happen until 2014.

I too have high hopes for EESTOR.

Rich, you are young in years. I am not. The Oxford dictionary definition of conspiracy is “make secret plans jointly to commit an unlawful OR ‘HARMFUL’ act. (Emphasis added) I have seen a lot of big business actions over the years that were legal & lawful but, EXTREMELY HARMFUL to our world & its inhabitants. Being legal & lawful does NOT make it a non-conspiracy. I am not against big business; it just seems to happen more often in the larger businesses.

Let me close by asking you to sincerely consider this single question:

Why do you think that our several state & federal legislative bodies have felt compelled to continue, every year, enacting more & more legislation requiring greater detail in reporting & significantly deeper probing during audits (Sarbanes-Oxley Compliance) with an accentuated focus on uncovering subterfuge & collusion?

I assure you it has nothing to do with our legislative bodies being ‘conspiracy theorists!’

Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell.

Yes, I am younger, although not too young. :)

Yes, your correct there should be things in place to protect the indiviuals and our environment and I am glad our government does. Sometimes better, sometimes worse.

Wayne, the 2004 agreement between Cobasys and PEVE was amended in July 2005:

http://www.cobasys.com/news/PressReleases/20050706.htm

Under the amendment PEVE may sell large format NiMH batteries in North America. Not that it really matters, it seems every serious PHEV engineer has moved on to advanced lithium.

EEStor will change the world if they deliver on their promises, but it's an extreme long shot.

I really don't feel EESTOR is a longshot. Take a look at BASF patent applicatioin # 20050220993 at:

http://tinyurl.com/3ay3al

BASF is quite credible & they are claiming up to 5.5kWh/liter w/ a 200VDC barium titanate 'hyper-cap.'

If you run the numbers on the EESU 'hyper-cap,' EESTOR is only claiming 1.67kWh/liter.

Yes, insiders tell me that Toyota plans on dropping NiMH storage on its head as soon as they can find a truly realiable alternative.

I've read the BASF patent (US Patent 7023687) and EEStor's original patent as well as one or two of their newer applications. It's not clear to me how either inventor plans to get around dielectric breakdown, but I'm no expert. My skepticism is based on other issues.

Barium titanate caps have been around forever, the material is well researched and not hard to work with. EEStor and BASF use BaTiO3 in a straightforward manner, yet after 5-6 years neither one has shown even a lab-scale prototype. EEStor is going into small-scale production with a flaky outfit as their only customer, when a prototype demo to big automakers would have produced a flood of orders with enough upfront payments to build factories for mass production. It makes no sense.

I really hope they deliver, but I've seen this movie too many times before to get my hopes up without a single shred of evidence.

For ESStor their problems will be two:
1) The constant high voltage applied to this big cap will cause material migration across the dielectric.This will cause leakage or breakdown.
2) Because the the cap will have a very temperature sensitive dielectric constant, the voltage will vary, at full charge, from say 1700v to 7kv. With 7kv, breakdown would be even more of an issue.
Well, at least, EVs will provide constant ink fodder for the pop science magazines.