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Phoenix Motorcars Books Orders for All-Electric Truck
12 January 2007
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| The all-electric Sport Utility Truck (SUT). |
Phoenix Motorcars has received 75 fleet orders from several municipalities and one utility company for its new zero-emission, all-electric, freeway-ready sport utility truck (SUT). The company, which is on target to manufacture and sell 500 fleet-ready vehicles by year’s end, will produce 16 pilot-build vehicles next month.
Some of the 16 vehicles will be used to continue validation of the federally mandated safety test process. The company is working with Boshart Engineering, an Ontario, California company that specializes in vehicle certification services, to gain its Federal Motor Vehicle Certification. (Earlier post.)
The company also confirmed that in consideration for a three-year exclusivity agreement within the US, Altair Nanotechnologies has received a 16.6% ownership in the company. (Earlier post.) The three-year exclusivity agreement provides Phoenix with limited, exclusive use of Altairnano’s NanoSafe battery packs in four-wheel, all-electric vehicles having a gross weight up to 6,000 pounds.
Phoenix must meet minimum battery pack purchases, annually, to maintain the limited exclusivity agreement. The minimum commitment to maintain exclusivity for 2007 would provide $16 Million in battery pack sales to Altairnano.
The Phoenix Motorcars sport utility truck combines the Altairnano 35 kWh li-ion battery pack with a 100 kW peak, 55 kW continuous motor from UQM Technologies. The motor develops peak torque of 550 Nm (406 lb-ft). The SUT can cruise on the freeway at up to 95 mph while carrying five passengers and a full payload. It exceeds all specifications for a Type III ZEV and has a driving range of up to 130 miles.
The battery can be charged using an off-board high-power 250 kW charger in less than 10 minutes to 95% SOC. Charging with the on-board 6.6 kW charger takes 5 to 6 hours. The battery has a life-span of 12 years or more.
Phoenix Motorcars’ 2007 market strategy targets operators of fleet vehicles, such as public utilities, public transportation providers, and delivery services. A limited number of vehicles will be available to consumers in 2007 with an expanded-consumer launch scheduled for 2008. Phoenix Motorcars will introduce a SUV model in late 2007.
January 12, 2007 in Electric (Battery), Fleets | Permalink | Comments (43) | TrackBack (0)
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This is great, and the future. Would be nice if it was under 20K, with financing and a 7 year warranty. Now offer us a no frills, Cobra inspired 2 seat commuter car for under 14K, and I would be a new owner.
Posted by: Mark A | Jan 12, 2007 9:13:25 AM
Outside that fact that 250kw would take more than 220 volts at 1000 amps or 440 volts at 500 amps, the power of a small town, this sounds good. Seating 5, handling a load, 95 mph and 130 mile range are all good.
Posted by: SJC | Jan 12, 2007 9:14:12 AM
I wonder if Utility customers don't even bother stepping down to 220V. Take it before the transformer for the charging station at several thousand volts...significantly reduces the current demand. I doubt they really need to charge the vehicles up in 10 minutes though (but it is nice to know it is capable of doing so).
Posted by: Patrick | Jan 12, 2007 9:32:10 AM
SJC, Patrick,
While the 250kw power source is in the domain for commercial/indusrtial power feeds, the onboard 6.6kw charger is doable for home recharge. Most new US homes have a 100amp max connection. If you use electric heating, it is ~200 amps. A proper apartment often has a 50-60 amp setup. All of them are 110 volts. One can charge while sleeping, 5-8 hrs, at home, or at a recharge station that has a high power supply in 10min.
Posted by: allen_Z | Jan 12, 2007 9:55:36 AM
Oh yeah, I am all for charging off peak at night for 6 or more hours and even quick charging when needed may be ok, but the realities should be considered. Many utilities synchronize commercial AC units so they don't all randomly come on at about the same time. Similar measures could probably be done with quick charging.
Posted by: SJC | Jan 12, 2007 10:22:38 AM
I wonder if ultracaps could be used at filling stations to smooth out the load.
Posted by: Neil | Jan 12, 2007 10:32:49 AM
This is the first I've heard of it being available to consumers (but only in CA, according the the website.)
Does anyone know if this vehicle (or the SUV) is/will be available with all wheel drive?
Also, would it do the 80 mile drive from Denver to Summit county (elevation gain of about 5500') on a charge?
If so this could come very close to being my only car. Exception would be road trips, which would require an on-board or towed genset or widely available quick-charge infrastructure.
This seems very promising!!
Posted by: witt | Jan 12, 2007 10:42:04 AM
I am not sure why a 250 KW charger is seen as some big load. It's not large for a commerical facility wired for 3 phase 480 volt service. A 3 phase 480 Volt, 100 amp circuit provides about (480 x 100 x 1.73 =)80 KW and would recharge a 35 KWH battery in about 30 minutes.
Posted by: Van | Jan 12, 2007 10:53:22 AM
It may not be much larger than the load a commercial building, say 100,000 square foot factory would be, but the power company has planned for the time of use profile for the building, it is not going anywhere an is predictable. Now take 100,000 of these vehicle and have them all over the roads quick charging who knows when and you have a transient problem.
Posted by: SJC | Jan 12, 2007 11:17:44 AM
SJC -
while I agree that night-time charging is the most sensible with regard to installed generation and grid capacity, it is not necessarily true that rapid charging would destabilize the net. For example, the high-voltage, high-current socket could come with power electronics that ramp up the connection slowly via PWM and circuitry to minimize line EMI. Same when the battery is nearly full and demand can be ramped down. This might add a few minutes to the charge cycle time but that's hardly a dealbreaker.
Posted by: Rafael Seidl | Jan 12, 2007 11:42:35 AM
PWM of an AC line voltage would create worse EMI. Not as strong but now you are talking about generating higher order frequencies that would be very transmittable by the short length of a power cable. The Ultr-low frequency (60hz) of typical AC, on the other hand, would not transmit very well at all from a cable unless it were 1000's of miles long.
Posted by: Patrick | Jan 12, 2007 11:50:00 AM
Heck, it may not be a problem, but ask EPRI first. Those are the folks that look at the grid and what it can do. They said nighttime charging would be ok on a fairly large scale. I don't recall them making a statement on large scale quick charging 9 to 5 on a midweek July afternoon with ACs a blazin'. You might just plug in and the network says sorry, your charge will take 2 hours and cost you 3 times as much for time of use.
Posted by: SJC | Jan 12, 2007 11:58:08 AM
Great comments (as is the norm for GCC).
Personally, I'm not too concerned about the various charging scenarios. If it turns out that people quick-charging at 3PM causes a problem, then we'll find a way around it, as in using ultracaps at recharging stations (as someone mentioned above). Who knows--that might be enough of a business to keep all the gas stations from closing. (Just kidding.)
Posted by: Lou Grinzo | Jan 12, 2007 12:31:20 PM
I read an interview with both the ceo and chief sales guy form pheonix and they stated that they will be selling these vehicles at a significant loss which is being offset by the ZEV credits. However, they HOPE to be able to sell them at a profit before the credits expire in three years. So I think there is little hope for a $20,000 version anytime soon. It sounded like the battery was the big cost barrier.
Posted by: paul | Jan 12, 2007 1:22:08 PM
From what I heard, they get the SUVs from some undisclosed Korean manufacturer without engine, trans, tank, etc. I think these BEVs sell for about $50k even after the rebates. Cities like L.A. would want them in fleets to show they are trying to clean up the air. That is a good first market for these guys. Once one city buys them, it is easier to make the next sale.
Posted by: SJC | Jan 12, 2007 2:10:06 PM
SJC -
if the network tells you that a "fast" recharge in the middle of a hot summer day is actually going to take 2 hours and cost you 3x the nighttime rate per kWh, that´ll teach you to wait until after dusk to recharge. I see no problem with that at all.
Posted by: Rafael Seidl | Jan 12, 2007 2:33:32 PM
SJC:
This Korean manufacturer is well known SsangYong.
Posted by: Skrivo | Jan 12, 2007 2:36:48 PM
That would be kind of like saying "out of gas" like during the '73 oil embargo to teach you to fill up when you can. Or there has been a lot of demand for gas, so the price per gallon is now 3 times what it was a few hours ago. The lack of availability or large price fluctuations have never been popular, but point taken,
Posted by: SJC | Jan 12, 2007 2:45:27 PM
This electricity truck (SUT) would cost on the same level as the Tesla Roadster, at ~100,000 USD, given the cost of the 35kwh battery pack at $75,000 USD a pop.
While this may be OK for a heavily subsidized fleet vehicle that needs 130 mi electrical range daily, for personal use, a 11 kwh battery ($23,000 USD-cost) coupled with a perhaps 30kw (~$3000 USD-cost) gasoline, natural gas or LPG genset can bring the vehicle cost down to half (~under 50,000 USD). Electric range would still be about 43 mi/charge, without ever the worry of running out of battery charge. The genset would qualify as a SULEV given its steady-state use, and the entire vehicle would be have an additional PZEV status.
If a H2-FC range extender is used as in the Ford Airstream concept car, then the vehicle would be a bona-fide ZEV in a big way, and may qualify for other benifits or subsidy? Since this PHEV vehicle may need but one H2 fillup per month given daily electrical charging at home, H2 can be produced and dispensed to the cars at one central location in the city, thus avoiding the issue of H2 transportation or distribution. Dual-powered vehicle like this may qualify for grants or subsidy from both H2 research fund and PHEV research fund, and the integration of the two energy sources will speed up the public-use research phase with more data points obtainable simultaneously, to help sped up the transition to a renewable energy economy.
In areas with cold winters, a PHEV with either H2-FC or ICE would be more desirable, since cabin heating is done with free waste heat from either the FC or ICE. A pure BEV would waste precious electrical power heating the cabin. Even in SoCal with mild winters, PHEV is still more desirable, given the fragile electrical grid situation there, with prolonged black-outs in the near past.
Potential problems with fast charging of under 10 minutes are many. These are:
1) expensive infrastructure modification, including expensive measures to ensure no disruption to the power grid from these huge surges.
2) stress on the battery due to the high current and heat that may shorten its life, and
3) the inherent danger of fire, melt-down, or even explosion should an electrical short-circuit occur. 250 kw of charging power is a very big wallop that really do damage real fast even before the short-circuitry can be recognized and stopped.
Posted by: Roger Pham | Jan 12, 2007 4:20:38 PM
The main part of the vehicle is made in Korea by SsangYong. From the looks of things, I'd guess that Phoenix is going to have some trouble actually assembling them in quantity in California.
Interesting article with some photos --
Firm powers up
10:00 PM PST on Sunday, January 7, 2007
By CAROL PARK
Phoenix Motorcars Inc. hopes to produce 20,000 electric vehicles a year some day.
But for now, the Ontario vehicle manufacturer plans to sell 500 cars by the end of the year...
http://www.thebizpress.com/profiles/stories/BP_News_Local_D_bp0108_profile.e12e01.html
Posted by: Fredrik | Jan 12, 2007 5:16:34 PM
Ontario, California is a good place to be located. Riverside and San Bernardino get most of L.A. and Orange Counties smog, they need to produce less of their own anyway.
Posted by: SJC | Jan 12, 2007 6:04:17 PM
I think the important thing here is that it is a good first step. As sales increase, production ramps, eventually prices will come down.
I believe the staggering cost of the batteries is largely due to the fact that Phoenix is having to pay for Altair's R&D as well as tooling, which is a hefty sum (Altair losses money at the moment BTW).
I agree with the comments regarding the genset. The advantages of liquid fuels is quite clear: high energy density, existing infrastructure. The downside to liquid fuels is that we don't use them properly. I'd guess that with a 40 mile all electric range, people could easily do 80% of their driving. That would have a HUGE impact on CO2 emissions. Not to mention that a good parallel hybrid setup, which is what an electric vehicle with an onboard genset would be considered, should be able to get ~50 mpg (mixed driving, lower value on the highway)
Posted by: Corey | Jan 12, 2007 7:02:05 PM
Looks like you could drop a genset in the cargo bed.
I wonder what the actual consumer selling price is?
Posted by: hampden wireless | Jan 12, 2007 7:13:16 PM
Roger:
The price of battery per se was never disclosed. Different experts estimate it price as slightly higher than A123 Li-ion, in the range of 450-600 $ per Kwh, which place 35 Kwh battery in 15-20 thousand range. Mass production should drive the price lower, but not very much. For PHEV applications 5000$ battery sounds like OK. Ni-Mh battery for Prius costs about 2000$.
Posted by: Andrey | Jan 12, 2007 7:34:18 PM
Regarding costing of the battery pack a comment by Kent Beuchert at the Energy Blog seems relevant.
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2007/01/phoenix_places_.html#comments
Posted by: marcus | Jan 12, 2007 11:24:25 PM
Mass production should drive the price lower, but not very much.
production cost wise, lithium-ion should be actually slightly cheaper than lead-acid when produced in the same automotive format.
As chinese are copying the tech like mad and ramping up production volumes, this is already evident in dirt-cheap li-powered e-bikes on sale in china, and in some cases you can get them here as well:
http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm
$160/kWh. Not bad. Quality is to be determined.
Posted by: kert | Jan 13, 2007 1:13:41 AM
Rapid charging of PHEV or BEV vehicles will increase the morning and afternoon peak load, but because the increase will be gradual, the Utilities will be able to ramp up generation to match. The whole idea is shifting from foreign energy, which funds those who plot against us, to domestic energy. And as we shift, we can work on improving the generation mix to reduce enviromental impact, be it with nuclear to reduce green-house gas polution, or renewables such as wind and PV.
Rapid charge does not present any sort of a problem that is not well understood and manageable.
Posted by: Van | Jan 13, 2007 5:48:38 AM
It is not so much the overall draw, but the local one. The local fueling station does not have a huge electrical service, so one would have to be installed. They do not want to pay $50k for an E85 pump, what would this cost? Telling the customer to wait 2 hours would be like saying "the gas truck won't be here for two hours", that is not good service. These are little details that have to be considered.
Posted by: SJC | Jan 13, 2007 12:22:09 PM
Base vehicle: Actyon, base price ~20500 eur (excl. tax) (or ~26000 USD)....
Posted by: realarms | Jan 13, 2007 12:34:29 PM
I agree with the previous poster, drop a gen set in the trunk when you know you are going to be pushing your range. The built in charger on this vehicle is not made for long distance, ie discharges faster than it charges, but they have already published that there will be a charging port for fast charge. You could get a purpose built charger and drop it in the bed for longer trips.
Posted by: Michael McMillan | Jan 13, 2007 4:22:48 PM
One reason I wouldnt own a lith ion car is of course I would never own a car that screams steal me have valueble crap on me. I vcan imagine the steal rate if a car thief can pry out a 25000 gmizo.
Posted by: wintermane | Jan 13, 2007 5:31:50 PM
Rapid recharging seems like a non-issue. Initially, why can't the "refilling station" charge its batteries at night? It would only need capacity for a few cars to begin with. They could have a red, yellow and green light on their price sign to alert motorists that they are at fast, medium, or slow charge status. As time went on, there would be a biosyngas fired generator or hydrogen fuelcell on site.
Posted by: APosterFormerlyKnownAsAndy | Jan 13, 2007 8:20:44 PM
Edit: ...fuelcell generator on site. If they went the genset route, fuel could be delivered via pipeline.
Posted by: APosterFormerlyKnownAsAndy | Jan 13, 2007 8:23:01 PM
wintermane, I guess you don't drive a Ferrari or Rolls?
Posted by: APosterFormerlyKnownAsAndy | Jan 13, 2007 8:31:16 PM
If I was rich enough to have those cars id be too bussy buying hookers and stuff to read this site...
Posted by: wintermane | Jan 14, 2007 11:07:51 AM
I don't see rapid charging as an issue. Recharging stations could charge $0.20 per KW*hr for a rapid charge during working hours. This will give people the insentive to charge at home and a handsome profit to the energy companies so that they can speed up the process of building the infrastructure for rapid charging.
Posted by: Freddy | Jan 14, 2007 4:50:59 PM
Fred,
I California on a sunny summer day we routinely run at 90%+ of our total grid capacity. It has gone as high as 95% at times. Now increase the load with 100,000 cars wanting 250kw for 10 minutes each and you bring the grid into complete collapse. Just surf around for EPRI grid papers and you will see. Night time charging fine, day time huge load quick charging? (I bet no so fine :)
Posted by: SJC | Jan 14, 2007 7:02:57 PM
I e-mailed Phoenix and they stated the initial fleet vehicles will sell at approx $45K each.
Altair established a business relationship with a battery company in China over a year ago. Advanced Battery (ABAT) has recently expanded its battery manufacturing capacities. I personally think that Phoenix and Altair are serious upstarts.
Posted by: Panentheist | Jan 15, 2007 5:49:07 AM
Well, there goes that IP. The Chinese will be knocking out copies and selling them on Ebay soon.
Posted by: SJC | Jan 15, 2007 7:37:25 AM
Wintermane, Do you also do without A/C and electricity because theives may try to steal the copper? There have been quite a few thefts of copper (and aluminum) around the US lately as prices for each metal have increased.
Posted by: Patrick | Jan 15, 2007 12:22:14 PM
So, what ever happened to this guys, anyone knows?
http://www.universalelectricvehicle.com/index.htm
FS
Posted by: Fred Sands | Jan 20, 2007 10:27:13 AM
Finding the quarter-megawatt chargers will be easy. Just follow the big powerlines.
Seriously, though, there shouldn't be a surge issue as long as we have a smart grid, which we need anyway. If you're in an area with a weak grid and you get multiple charges at once, demand-side management techniques could be invoked which would turn off some local refrigeration units and such for a few minutes. Note that while other loads of that magnitude don't turn on and off very often, they do turn on at will and the grid already has to accomodate that level of transient. Also, while you are charging a cooperative charger could accomodate other, shorter-term load spikes elsewhere by backing off, which enables the grid to be pushed closer to its limit.
You wouldn't have to make a time slot reservation for a power charge. Worse comes to worse, the charge is slowed down some.
As far as the overall grid capacity peak goes, charging in the middle of the day will not be costly as soon as we get enough PV power sprinkled around, which should happen on a similar schedule to the deployment of EV's.
If you want to be able to fast-charge on the road, though, a standard still needs to be developed.
Posted by: P Schager | Jan 22, 2007 3:15:04 PM
>45K doesnt sound like a crazy price.
How low can that go?
Can it get to under 30K with soft financeing?
I still think that they should think about offering
battery packs as modules. Something like you
the 50mile 100mile and 150mile modules.
You can buy them at different times.
Start with 50 add 50 more later.
Sure would help the price and raise the acceptance.
That with some good financing.
(Wonder if the government could help with direct loans)
Posted by: bob | Apr 25, 2007 11:30:31 AM
