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AC Propulsion Delivers First eBox EV Conversion
19 February 2007
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| The eBox. |
AC Propulsion, the maker of the tzero electric sports car, has delivered its first eBox electric vehicle to actor Tom Hanks.
The eBox, a converted Toyota Scion xB, made its public debut in December 2006 and uses an AC Propulsion drive system combined with a 35 kWh li-ion battery pack to support an all-electric range of approximately 150 miles with a top speed of 90 mph and 0-60 acceleration of about 7 seconds. The eBox is also Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) capable.
The drive system uses an AC induction motor that produces 120 kW of peak power, 50 kW continuous, with 220 Nm (162 lb-ft) of torque. The system supports regenerative braking.
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| A 35 kWh li-ion battery pack from AC Propulsion. |
AC Propulsion built the 335 V nominal li-ion battery pack from 5,088 small cells. An on-board charger is rated from 1 to 20 kW with 100 to 250V input, and has a bi-directional grid interface. A fast full recharge takes 2 hours, a normal recharge takes 5 hours.
The eBox costs approximately $70,000—the base price of the Scion xB (around $15,000) plus the $55,000 conversion cost.
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February 19, 2007 in Conversions, Electric (Battery) | Permalink | Comments (41) | TrackBack (0)
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Comments
I've driven one lately...
Nice car with great acceleration, but with a not-so-friendly $75K price tag!!! Hanks can easily buy 1000 of them and give them away as a charitable gesture to needy people who want to drive BEVs but cannot afford this kind of $$$.
FS
Posted by: Fred Sands | Feb 19, 2007 9:52:51 AM
Seems good apart from the range and the price.
Posted by: James | Feb 19, 2007 10:09:35 AM
The range shouldn't be much of a problem considering that you start every morning with a "full tank". I'm lucky if my car starts out the day with a quarter of a tank.
Posted by: Neil | Feb 19, 2007 10:42:57 AM
James:
I agree that the price is awful, but what's wrong with the range? In my two car household, I'd love to have such a vehicle, provided, again, that the price is reasonable. I suspect the vast majority of the driving public would feel the same. I base this on what I have heard anecdotally.
Posted by: Kumar Barve | Feb 19, 2007 10:45:58 AM
Range would be fine with me.... the price....
sorry. Hey Tom, I sure would like one... :)
Posted by: John | Feb 19, 2007 10:49:51 AM
funny they could not find anything a little more aerodynamic , looks a little like a housebrick , seriously though 75k is a lot of money for this type of car , in mass prodution the price should come down dramaticaly , an electric car should be a lot cheapear than a modern ICE car to manufacture just think of all the things you get to throw away
1. injection system, costly and always going wrong
2. exhuast system , need a new one every few years
3. ICE motor , 200kilos of cast iron and alloys , costly and prone to failure
4. gearbox , another chunky piece of metal 75to 100 kilos
5. clutch and housing , cant remember how many I have changed in 25 years of driving
6. fuel tank and pumps
7. starter motor , very heavy in a diesel car
8. alternater , very expensive to replace
the list goes on , ok you need a whole bundle of electronics , for an electric car but these are so much more reliable than in an ICE beacause you dont have to interface to the mecanical parts of the ICE motor ,
the only real bugbear is that battery , but maybe the chinese will help us with that one , I am sure that once the ball starts rolling these huge prices will come down , but good on Tom Hanks he´s put his money where his mouth is , we need a few more politicans to take his lead !
Posted by: andrichrose | Feb 19, 2007 11:17:06 AM
The price is too high! Well what do we expect from a teeny company taking on this challenge by itself? What would happen to the price of vehicles like this if they were produced and promoted by one of the multinational auto manufacturers, or any giant multinational corporation? What would happen to the price of vehicles like this if a fraction of the tax breaks granted giant oil corporations were applied to a pipsqueak like AC propulsion?
Say the eBox cost $50,000, per unit. For 50 grand a pop, you could build 20 of these cars for one million dollars. For $200 million you could build 4000 of these cars. What do you think would happen to the $50,000 price of this car, if 4000 of them were built? Now, imagine that 4000 of these vehicles were rolling off the assembly line each and every day. 4000 eBoxs times 365 equals 1,460,000 vehicles per year. Does anyone think that, if sold in these volumes, the eBox would still cost $50,000 per unit?
$200 million per day is a conservative estimate of the current costs of funding one day's worth of the Iraqi liberation.
It's not about cost, it's about priorities.
Posted by: Lee | Feb 19, 2007 11:35:47 AM
The range and charge times are fine with me. My gas gauge reaches the half-way point at about 150 miles. This equates to about 5.5 days of driving for me. I have driven more than 150 miles in one day no more than 2 times the past year.
Thse celebrities need to get a clue. Instead of wasting energy in lambasting the government and the war in Iraq, they could educate the public on the possibilites of BEVs. Heck, with all the funding that Hanks, Clooney, Cruise and company could generate, why don't they start an electric car company?
Posted by: cs1992 | Feb 19, 2007 11:55:57 AM
150 miles is just fine with me as well.
I cant think of the last time I went that far in a day.
But the cost is prohibative.
I figure the batteries are the most expensive component. So how cheap can they be purchased for in bulk? Is there chart with volume -vs- cost?
Maybe someone can strike a deal with one of the big three since they are hurting for the car shells.
I think the hollywood crowd could get together and super fund it but how cheap can it be made?
Posted by: Bob | Feb 19, 2007 12:12:14 PM
Sure the range is fine for everyday driving but in a few weeks I'm off to see my mate in London. That's over 150 miles away and when I'm driving that much I don't want a two to five hour break in my journey for recharging.
And I don't want to pay that much money for a car that can't do relativly short road trip.
Posted by: James | Feb 19, 2007 1:01:08 PM
For the occasional long trip you can tow the optional genset, making it a hybrid of sorts. The cost is high, but just like anything that's built in very small numbers by hand, that cost is sure to drop if the same were to be built in larger numbers by a mostly automated assembly line.
Posted by: Erick | Feb 19, 2007 2:27:11 PM
Where does it say anything about a genset?
Posted by: James | Feb 19, 2007 2:38:31 PM
I know it looks like a flying brick, but I know someone who has one. He says that he gets 30 miles per gallon driving sporty.
The aerodynamics of the overall shape sort of suck, but the doors seal flush with a little flap so that there is negligible disruption in airflow. The vehicle rides very close to the ground minimizing airflow under the car.
The total vehicle weight is low, minimizing rolling resistance, especially when combined with low rolling resistance tires.
So it is not as bad as it seams. The low total weight greatly increase acceleration and regenerative deceleration.
Posted by: Michael McMillan | Feb 19, 2007 3:04:00 PM
Where and when will a 5-passenger BEV sedan, with 200+ miles range, be mass produced for $25 000 +/- $5 000?
In C.... or K.... in 2009/11?
Posted by: Harvey D. | Feb 19, 2007 3:19:41 PM
Li-on batteries are already a mass produced item for the laptop and electronic goods market. Therefore, it is not a given that economies of scale will have much of an impact on the cost of converting vehicles to electricity;nor is it a given that they will have sufficient longevity to ever be economical for us mere mortals. We are still clearly in the toys for the rich category.
Posted by: t | Feb 19, 2007 3:31:27 PM
Yes; AC Prop. is a tiny company but they hold a great e-drive. I would do it differently... since they already been succesful in showing us that their drive system is top-notch, I would team up with a [BEV] car manufacturer and co-produce fair priced vehicles rather than be content with selling a $70K modified Scion.
Sure they are making some money doing so, sure they make some money by licesning their drive system know-how, but what about the future? What about the ability to do large numbers?
Good luck to you AC Prop...
FS
Posted by: Fred Sands | Feb 19, 2007 3:42:00 PM
another future bankrupcy, but Tom's charitable contibution will give them a few days of operating capital.
Posted by: Richard | Feb 19, 2007 4:57:35 PM
another future bankrupcy, but Tom's charitable contibution will give them a few days of operating capital.
Posted by: Richard | Feb 19, 2007 4:58:16 PM
Richard,
I am not sure about bankruptcy for AC Propulsion...
They have a lot of e-Box sold [100?] and money from licensing their tech to Tesla plus royalties.
Maybe they'll make it!
FS
Posted by: Fred | Feb 19, 2007 6:01:27 PM
This is a pretty raw deal when compared to what Tesla is going to offer. I would hope to see them make these for at most $45000. The range is not bad, it would be usuable for a delivery vehicle or a commuter. I just cant get past that price for a Scion Xb.
Posted by: hampden wireless | Feb 19, 2007 6:14:58 PM
The American public is going to LOVE BEV's. There are just too many benefits for them not too. Simple drivetrains mean lower maintenance costs and longer lives. They have great driving traits. Their electrical systems lend themselves nicely to modern niceties like audio/video systems, navigation systems, etc. They smell better, sound better, drive better, have the potential to look better, and are easier to live with. Not to mention that whole Saving The Planet thing.
You have three basic components: Motor, controller, and batteries. Batteries are the only questionable factor right now. But progress is made every year. Best of all, a well designed BEV should be easy to upgrade. So you buy the car today with a 100 mile/charge pack that takes all night to charge, and recycle the batteries in 10 years for a 200 mile/charge pack that charges in half an hour. There is absolutely no reason this can't happen.
And remember, oil prices will only go up. There is no single alternative that could do for us what oil has done. Not hydrogen or ethanol or biodiesel. Electric cars are fuel agnostic. They don't care HOW you run your power plants.
Posted by: Ben W | Feb 19, 2007 6:58:53 PM
andrichrose,
Your weight estimates are too high. A LS6 5.7L V-8 weighs 200kilos. A Toyota 1.5L with DOHC is likely to be closer to 125kilos.
My transmission weighs 45kilos without fluids. 2.5qts of fluid is negligible weight (3 kilos maybe?) [this is for a 5spd mitsubishi transmission]
110,000 miles on the clutch so far with no slipping.
Part of the high cost is the labor of stripping out the old and putting in the new. If this were a factory built vehicle it would not have such a high price tag as the assembly line procedures for building a car from the ground up are far more efficient than replacing components in a fully assembled vehicle. Only the $20,000 or so from the price of the batteries is unlikely to scale down.
Posted by: Patrick | Feb 19, 2007 7:14:11 PM
If we find enough people willing to invest some money, we could arrange our own battery production facility, or am I dreaming!
Posted by: Joe | Feb 19, 2007 7:34:25 PM
If Tom Hanks were any more politically correct, I think I'd throw up. Why doesn't he show at least a little sense and buy a practical electric or plug-in when available?Does he really think the public is gullible enough to waste their money on this nonsensical contraption? People aren't THAT stupid and don't generally like throwing their momey away purely for image.
Posted by: kent beuchert | Feb 19, 2007 8:58:41 PM
Hey Andrichrose,
I have an 11 year old Honda Civic with over 220,000 miles on it. Still has the original exhaust (including muffler), the original clutch, alternator, starter motor, transmission etc. Only the usual maintainance items (spark plugs, air filter, timing belt etc.).
But I agree with you that ICE's have a lot of parts and electronics. The more I work on ICE's, the more I look forward to the simplicity of a BEV.
Posted by: miket1 | Feb 19, 2007 8:59:51 PM
Harvey, $25k barely covers the battery pack for your mythical 5 passenger 200+ mile BEV. Nothing left over for motor(s), power electronics, chassis, body, interior, labor, profit, .......
BEVs need an 80% drop in battery pricing to compete on cost. Since that's not likely, PHEVs which can get by with an 80% smaller battery are our best hope.
Posted by: doggydogworld | Feb 19, 2007 9:05:15 PM
Andrichrose, do you drive British cars?
Posted by: George | Feb 19, 2007 9:16:42 PM
don't forget, that $75k price includes your fuel bill for the lifetime of the batteries.
for 150k miles at 30 mpg and $3.5/gal that is worth $17.5k.
the cost of electricity for the same distance is: 150k miles, 30 kWhr for 150 miles, $.06/kWhr (ave for Seattle) gives us 1000 charges of 35kW for $2.1 each is $2.1k for fuel over the lifetime.
so, you can take the first $15k right off the top of the price, giving you a $60k xB.
theoretically, other running costs will also be lower, but i'd like to see a fleet worth of proof before commenting on that.
Posted by: Shaun Mann | Feb 19, 2007 11:05:22 PM
One might wonder why AltairNano isn't in the mix yet. Their 15KwH pack runs the Phoenix today and they have a 35KwH pack in works. Last I saw their 15KwH unit sold for around the same cost as the AC Prop eBox - and it will only get cheaper.
Good to see so many little guys building the ground floor of an entirely new industry. Guess it takes imagination to put your money where everyone else's mouth seems to be.
Posted by: gr | Feb 19, 2007 11:13:33 PM
George , I drive a 2001 rover 2.0 litre cdt estate , this model has the BMW diesel engine , as you might expect repair and servicing is expensive . however it is quick very comfortable and uses little fuel, 6litres /100 km
costs so far clutch slave assembly, 500 euros , cooling fan, 600euros servicing costs run on average 300 euros every 15000 km car has covered approx 130000 km
most of these cost would go if car was electric , together with the emissions
Posted by: andrichrose | Feb 20, 2007 1:47:12 AM
Shaun. Gas is currently 2 something a gallon. The minimum price for electricity in California is $.11 per kw ranging up to $.33 per kw depending upon use. The battery will probably need to be replaced way before the $150,000 miles. Recompute for the real world. Seattle electricity prices are not the real world.
Posted by: t | Feb 20, 2007 6:36:32 AM
Is California the real world? I pay .06 Canadian for my electricity. Just curious, what was the price there before they privatized (Enronized) their system?
Posted by: Neil | Feb 20, 2007 6:47:20 AM
$2.50 gallon just east of Seattle.
...and 6 cents per kWh only applies to the first 600kWhrs for the area outside of Seattle (the other 2 million people outside of the 500,000 in Seattle).
Posted by: Patrick | Feb 20, 2007 8:29:18 AM
Fellas,
the most important thing here is that BEVs like this one are only a way for AC-Prop. to keep its employees working and paid.
I understand that AC-Prop. drive is priced at a "low" $25K, so just to start the drive itself is astronomically expensive. If their drive system was priced at $5K then things would start being different.
Also, the battery packs price is high because they sell it with the max available power/capacity, but what if someone only wanted a 50 mile range? Then I say, let the customer decide which range he/she prefers and perhaps this way an entry level BEV could cost a lot less.
Now, if you want to drive from LA to SF with a BEV even with a 150 mile range/capacity, you would have to stop at least a couple of times for about four+? hours each time to recharge.
How many of you drive 300, 400+ miles every day? Then, how many of you drive locally inside city walls or live in a town close to a big city which is usually not more than 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 miles away...
Anyway, AC-Prop. makes ONLY drive systems and because they build each one by hand and make their own battery packs each one by hand they would never be able to have competitive prices unless of course they start manufacturing in China. Are they?
FS
Posted by: Fred Sands | Feb 20, 2007 8:50:48 AM
Depends on the area but around here plug in hybrids and ev cars wont catch on. The reason is simple utility bill. Our power is priced depending on usage such that a ev car would quadruple the price per kw in many cases.
Posted by: wintermane | Feb 20, 2007 11:38:01 AM
An 80% drop in battery price is by no means out of the question, but it's unrealistic to expect it to happen overnight. 20% per year is about the best we can reasonably hope to see. More than that, and demand would outstrip the manufacturer's ability to ramp up.
Li-ion prices are high for today's batteries because they have to be fabricated under clean-room conditions in a labor intensive process. Technologies like A123 systems, which are immune to thermal runaway, should be more amenable to the kind of automated manufacturing that will be needed to drastically reduce costs.
Posted by: Roger Arnold | Feb 20, 2007 2:39:06 PM
wintermane,
With electricity that expensive I'd hate to see the bill to produce hydrogen from a non hydrocarbon source.
Posted by: Patrick | Feb 20, 2007 2:56:13 PM
Great News:
A great portion of the cost (as well as the concerns about battery longevity) are about to come to an end.
The reason being simply this:
Toyota Motor Reps mention that they want a battery to last 15 years, (the useful/reliable life of the body, etc).
However, that is if it is assumed that there is not
A SECOND TYPE OF LIFE FOR THE BATTERY, NO MATTER HOW BIG OR EXPENSIVE IT IS! Thus retention of VALUE.
The proven life of the new technological breakthrough, the Nano-Phosphate Lithium Ion battery from A123Systems(.com) and Massachusetts Institute of Technology for that new breakthrough, this battery retains 95 percent of its capacity
AT FULL DISCHARGE (100 PERCENT DEPTH OF DISCHARGE) for at least 1,000 cycles! That is 3 years before you
MIGHT notice much of a distance reduction (AND THEN AGAIN, SINCE DATA RELEASED DO NOT GO FARTHER THAN 1,000 CHARGE/DISCHARGE CYCLES, A 3.5 YEAR TO 4 YEAR USEFUL LIFE MIGHT BE POSSIBLE AS A "PROPULSION/MOVING BATTERY".
Even if the battery lasted only 4 or 5 years, at, say, 70 percent capacity at 50 months, then there is still a
SECOND TYPE OF LIFE FOR THE BATTERY.
The second type of life for that battery is for
STATIONARY USAGE. (A resale demand would certainly exist).
That means that during those periods where power brownouts might become a risk factor to the grid, these
batteries could certainly provide their stationary capacity as backup power supplies during times of spikes in demand as when folks get home at about 5 pm and all turn on the AC in the house.
THESE BATTERIES MIGHT BE EVEN BE SET UP TO REMAIN IN YOUR OWN HOME (PROPERLY/SAFELY) REPACKAGED, BUT DISCHARGED INTO THE GRID (DISTRIBUTED POWER) AS COMMANDED BY YOUR LOCAL UTILITY IN TIMES OF NEED)
Therefore, it is an unnecessary concern for Toyota Motor to WAIT before unrealistic goals of a 15 year battery-useful-life MAY come about. They are being very very seriously and excessively CONSERVATIVE, in that the owner of the vehicle may not have any problem in acquiring a vehicle with a 3.5 TO 5 year battery "FIRST LIFE", and, even regarding the use of that battery for only 3.5 or 5 years to sell it to interested third parties to use as a STATIONARY BATTERY IN SUPPORT OF THE POWER GRID AS ITS SECOND LIFE.
OFFSETTING THE COST OF A NEW BATTERY IS THE CONCEPT,
NO MATTER HOW LONG IT LASTS AS A PROPULSION BATTERY.
Also, there is NOT any possible supply shortage of the inexpensive materials (e.g. Lithium) as previously and erroneously contained in other texts.
Sincerely,
Dan Petit
Posted by: Dan Petit | Feb 25, 2007 6:19:20 PM
One further advantage for the Second Life of a Lithium Ion Nano Phosphate battery:
The residual stationary battery capacity could be used occasionally by you to actually recharge your new replacement propulsion battery (in the vehicle) in your own home (beyond your 40 miles for that day) even though its capacity is less. The power in it would be "stepped up" to recharge the one in the vehicle, and then recharged overnight at the same time as your moving/in-vehicle/propulsion battery is recharged.
The energy could be easily be drawn from it into your propulsion battery during the day (so that you would not be drawing from the grid during the day, instead, you would recharge that also between the usual 10pm to 6am recharge times) to extend your 40 mile range another 20 to 30 miles on those days you have to go further.
Sincerely,
Dan Petit.
Posted by: Dan Petit | Feb 25, 2007 6:35:18 PM
150 miles Range with the AC running in 90 degr Weather???
Posted by: Don | Mar 5, 2007 5:50:34 AM
So much reason for optimism and hope... mmmmmm... the Phoenix Motorcar EV company in Ontario, California, is using a really spectacular battery, but they have a mutually exclusive agreement with the battery maker, Altair Nanotech, so it's unlikely you'll see it in any other cars for at least 3 years.
They call the battery the NanoSafe because it will not catch fire or explode like lithium-ion batteries, even if you drive nails through it, crush it, bake it in an oven at 400 degrees, or overcharge it way beyond its capacity. That's really important in the event of an accident... no more people burning to death in cars with ruptured gas tanks.
Aerovironment tested the battery for the California Air Resources Board and verified that the battery could repeatedly be rapid charged in 10 minutes, and then drained in 2 hours of driving, and recharged... the battery has survived 30,000 quick charge/discharge cycles, which practically means it will never fail.
The battery has low internal electrical resistance, which means it will be more efficient than other batteries when you charge it. It also does not heat up under heavy use.
It is made of materials that are non-toxic... no lead, mercury, cadmium, sulfuric acid, etc., and the materials are also plentiful... no nickel or other metals in short supply.
The NanoSafe gives the Phoenix Motorcar a range of 130 miles, and they'll have a larger battery pack soon with a 250 mile range. Tweaking the battery design is believed to be able to extend the range to 400 miles by sometime next year. The Phoenix has acceleration comparable to a 7-series BMW, and a 95 mph top speed.
The British Lightning high-performance EV sports car will be using the same battery pack, but will be much more expensive... just for the elite... $600,000... the Phoenix is selling for $45,000, and they already have hundreds of cars on order, so it will take them months to catch up... they'll have a backlog for years, I suspect unless other car makers start selling lots of EVs too.
If you want to see some interesting EVs videos, check YouTube for the races between EVs such as tZero, Wrightspeed, and Tesla, versus the Viper, Ferrari, Porsche, and other gasoline muscle cars. The EVs are clearly better performers. The YouTube video of the KillaCycle EV drag bike, with a world record time of 1.04 seconds for 0-60 mph... wow... that's impressive too.
Posted by: Bill Dale | Jun 26, 2007 6:39:30 PM
