Harvey, $25k barely covers the battery pack for your mythical 5 passenger 200+ mile BEV. Nothing left over for motor(s), power electronics, chassis, body, interior, labor, profit, .......

BEVs need an 80% drop in battery pricing to compete on cost. Since that's not likely, PHEVs which can get by with an 80% smaller battery are our best hope.

Andrichrose, do you drive British cars?

don't forget, that $75k price includes your fuel bill for the lifetime of the batteries.

for 150k miles at 30 mpg and $3.5/gal that is worth $17.5k.

the cost of electricity for the same distance is: 150k miles, 30 kWhr for 150 miles, $.06/kWhr (ave for Seattle) gives us 1000 charges of 35kW for $2.1 each is $2.1k for fuel over the lifetime.

so, you can take the first $15k right off the top of the price, giving you a $60k xB.

theoretically, other running costs will also be lower, but i'd like to see a fleet worth of proof before commenting on that.

One might wonder why AltairNano isn't in the mix yet. Their 15KwH pack runs the Phoenix today and they have a 35KwH pack in works. Last I saw their 15KwH unit sold for around the same cost as the AC Prop eBox - and it will only get cheaper.

Good to see so many little guys building the ground floor of an entirely new industry. Guess it takes imagination to put your money where everyone else's mouth seems to be.

George , I drive a 2001 rover 2.0 litre cdt estate , this model has the BMW diesel engine , as you might expect repair and servicing is expensive . however it is quick very comfortable and uses little fuel, 6litres /100 km
costs so far clutch slave assembly, 500 euros , cooling fan, 600euros servicing costs run on average 300 euros every 15000 km car has covered approx 130000 km
most of these cost would go if car was electric , together with the emissions

Shaun. Gas is currently 2 something a gallon. The minimum price for electricity in California is $.11 per kw ranging up to $.33 per kw depending upon use. The battery will probably need to be replaced way before the $150,000 miles. Recompute for the real world. Seattle electricity prices are not the real world.

Is California the real world? I pay .06 Canadian for my electricity. Just curious, what was the price there before they privatized (Enronized) their system?

$2.50 gallon just east of Seattle.

...and 6 cents per kWh only applies to the first 600kWhrs for the area outside of Seattle (the other 2 million people outside of the 500,000 in Seattle).

Fellas,

the most important thing here is that BEVs like this one are only a way for AC-Prop. to keep its employees working and paid.

I understand that AC-Prop. drive is priced at a "low" $25K, so just to start the drive itself is astronomically expensive. If their drive system was priced at $5K then things would start being different.

Also, the battery packs price is high because they sell it with the max available power/capacity, but what if someone only wanted a 50 mile range? Then I say, let the customer decide which range he/she prefers and perhaps this way an entry level BEV could cost a lot less.

Now, if you want to drive from LA to SF with a BEV even with a 150 mile range/capacity, you would have to stop at least a couple of times for about four+? hours each time to recharge.

How many of you drive 300, 400+ miles every day? Then, how many of you drive locally inside city walls or live in a town close to a big city which is usually not more than 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 miles away...

Anyway, AC-Prop. makes ONLY drive systems and because they build each one by hand and make their own battery packs each one by hand they would never be able to have competitive prices unless of course they start manufacturing in China. Are they?

FS

Depends on the area but around here plug in hybrids and ev cars wont catch on. The reason is simple utility bill. Our power is priced depending on usage such that a ev car would quadruple the price per kw in many cases.

An 80% drop in battery price is by no means out of the question, but it's unrealistic to expect it to happen overnight. 20% per year is about the best we can reasonably hope to see. More than that, and demand would outstrip the manufacturer's ability to ramp up.

Li-ion prices are high for today's batteries because they have to be fabricated under clean-room conditions in a labor intensive process. Technologies like A123 systems, which are immune to thermal runaway, should be more amenable to the kind of automated manufacturing that will be needed to drastically reduce costs.

wintermane,

With electricity that expensive I'd hate to see the bill to produce hydrogen from a non hydrocarbon source.

Great News:
A great portion of the cost (as well as the concerns about battery longevity) are about to come to an end.
The reason being simply this:
Toyota Motor Reps mention that they want a battery to last 15 years, (the useful/reliable life of the body, etc).
However, that is if it is assumed that there is not
A SECOND TYPE OF LIFE FOR THE BATTERY, NO MATTER HOW BIG OR EXPENSIVE IT IS! Thus retention of VALUE.
The proven life of the new technological breakthrough, the Nano-Phosphate Lithium Ion battery from A123Systems(.com) and Massachusetts Institute of Technology for that new breakthrough, this battery retains 95 percent of its capacity
AT FULL DISCHARGE (100 PERCENT DEPTH OF DISCHARGE) for at least 1,000 cycles! That is 3 years before you
MIGHT notice much of a distance reduction (AND THEN AGAIN, SINCE DATA RELEASED DO NOT GO FARTHER THAN 1,000 CHARGE/DISCHARGE CYCLES, A 3.5 YEAR TO 4 YEAR USEFUL LIFE MIGHT BE POSSIBLE AS A "PROPULSION/MOVING BATTERY".
Even if the battery lasted only 4 or 5 years, at, say, 70 percent capacity at 50 months, then there is still a
SECOND TYPE OF LIFE FOR THE BATTERY.
The second type of life for that battery is for
STATIONARY USAGE. (A resale demand would certainly exist).
That means that during those periods where power brownouts might become a risk factor to the grid, these
batteries could certainly provide their stationary capacity as backup power supplies during times of spikes in demand as when folks get home at about 5 pm and all turn on the AC in the house.
THESE BATTERIES MIGHT BE EVEN BE SET UP TO REMAIN IN YOUR OWN HOME (PROPERLY/SAFELY) REPACKAGED, BUT DISCHARGED INTO THE GRID (DISTRIBUTED POWER) AS COMMANDED BY YOUR LOCAL UTILITY IN TIMES OF NEED)
Therefore, it is an unnecessary concern for Toyota Motor to WAIT before unrealistic goals of a 15 year battery-useful-life MAY come about. They are being very very seriously and excessively CONSERVATIVE, in that the owner of the vehicle may not have any problem in acquiring a vehicle with a 3.5 TO 5 year battery "FIRST LIFE", and, even regarding the use of that battery for only 3.5 or 5 years to sell it to interested third parties to use as a STATIONARY BATTERY IN SUPPORT OF THE POWER GRID AS ITS SECOND LIFE.
OFFSETTING THE COST OF A NEW BATTERY IS THE CONCEPT,
NO MATTER HOW LONG IT LASTS AS A PROPULSION BATTERY.
Also, there is NOT any possible supply shortage of the inexpensive materials (e.g. Lithium) as previously and erroneously contained in other texts.
Sincerely,
Dan Petit

One further advantage for the Second Life of a Lithium Ion Nano Phosphate battery:
The residual stationary battery capacity could be used occasionally by you to actually recharge your new replacement propulsion battery (in the vehicle) in your own home (beyond your 40 miles for that day) even though its capacity is less. The power in it would be "stepped up" to recharge the one in the vehicle, and then recharged overnight at the same time as your moving/in-vehicle/propulsion battery is recharged.
The energy could be easily be drawn from it into your propulsion battery during the day (so that you would not be drawing from the grid during the day, instead, you would recharge that also between the usual 10pm to 6am recharge times) to extend your 40 mile range another 20 to 30 miles on those days you have to go further.
Sincerely,
Dan Petit.

150 miles Range with the AC running in 90 degr Weather???

So much reason for optimism and hope... mmmmmm... the Phoenix Motorcar EV company in Ontario, California, is using a really spectacular battery, but they have a mutually exclusive agreement with the battery maker, Altair Nanotech, so it's unlikely you'll see it in any other cars for at least 3 years.

They call the battery the NanoSafe because it will not catch fire or explode like lithium-ion batteries, even if you drive nails through it, crush it, bake it in an oven at 400 degrees, or overcharge it way beyond its capacity. That's really important in the event of an accident... no more people burning to death in cars with ruptured gas tanks.

Aerovironment tested the battery for the California Air Resources Board and verified that the battery could repeatedly be rapid charged in 10 minutes, and then drained in 2 hours of driving, and recharged... the battery has survived 30,000 quick charge/discharge cycles, which practically means it will never fail.

The battery has low internal electrical resistance, which means it will be more efficient than other batteries when you charge it. It also does not heat up under heavy use.

It is made of materials that are non-toxic... no lead, mercury, cadmium, sulfuric acid, etc., and the materials are also plentiful... no nickel or other metals in short supply.

The NanoSafe gives the Phoenix Motorcar a range of 130 miles, and they'll have a larger battery pack soon with a 250 mile range. Tweaking the battery design is believed to be able to extend the range to 400 miles by sometime next year. The Phoenix has acceleration comparable to a 7-series BMW, and a 95 mph top speed.

The British Lightning high-performance EV sports car will be using the same battery pack, but will be much more expensive... just for the elite... $600,000... the Phoenix is selling for $45,000, and they already have hundreds of cars on order, so it will take them months to catch up... they'll have a backlog for years, I suspect unless other car makers start selling lots of EVs too.

If you want to see some interesting EVs videos, check YouTube for the races between EVs such as tZero, Wrightspeed, and Tesla, versus the Viper, Ferrari, Porsche, and other gasoline muscle cars. The EVs are clearly better performers. The YouTube video of the KillaCycle EV drag bike, with a world record time of 1.04 seconds for 0-60 mph... wow... that's impressive too.