Lad -

according to an interview with Tesla CEO Eberhard on an Autobloggreen Podcast the other day, the company chose to develop new packaging for a large number of commodity cells because that delivered twice the energy density for a quarter of the price.

Just wanted to take a moment to address the GM haters. The introduction of the Volt, or maybe more accurately, the E-Flex architecture is Big news for the green world. Not only is it Big news, it's also Good news. Now, lots of people out there may have legitimate reasons for dislike of GM vehicles as they may have been shipped a lemon in the past, or didn't agree with their previous sales philosophies of pushing large vehicles as opposed to more efficient ones. GM appears to be really trying these days with ideas such as stated in this article. We say things like "this is a conspiracy between Big Auto and Big Oil"---huh? As I said in an earlier post, GM can't win here. First, they are blasted for selling lots of SUV's and Pick-ups. Toyota does the exact same thing and gets nothing but cheers and adoration from this crowd. Then GM finally makes an effort to be completely transparent and forthright about their future EV plans, and they still get blasted. Companies like GM need to be encouraged for efforts such as E-Flex. To do otherwise is to shoot ourselves in the foot. How? Promoters of green technologies, which I assume we collectively are, need to encourage green technology efforts wherever they rise, to push that evolution of the car forward. It's stupid and un-productive to commend and support one company for doing good things for the green, and blast another just because there are some old prejudices out there.

I'm off my soap box now.

If it is true that the 2009 Prius will have a 3KWH lithum ion battery, and an AER of about 8 miles, and will sell for about $24,000, then a plug-in Hymotion modification will give us the performance claimed by the GM Volt, in 2009, less than two years away, and the modified vehicle will cost less than $36,000. Now it would be great if the OEM offered the option in 2009, but I do not foresee that happening until about 2012, with the 2011 models.

Andone who has read up on the VAST differences between the markets in the us and japan would know instantly why they can bring out lith ion years early in japan.

It realy pays to be a tech gadget manic society as the japanese are.

Amen, Schmeltz. You said it all.

I learned to drive in 73 Chevy Vega ... what a LEMON! I won't feel any pity for the company if they go under. They've dug their own grave (repeatedly) with short sighted decisions. Having said that, I won't hold the past against them if they can do the right thing now. If GM makes a PHEV, I'll take a serious look at it. This could be their very last chance to earn a little redemption.

Just look at the chart GM produced. A serial plug-in hybrid requires high capacity and high power, while a parallel plug-in hybrid requires high capacity and low power. Since battery is the gating technology, even GM's own chart shows they will be at a disadvantage.

Seems they are admiting defeat even at this stage of game.

Energex42:

Defeat? Hah! General Motors laughs at defeat, there will be no defeat while there is a polar bear left standing.

How will they be at a disadvantage if they are also producing parallel plug-ins? The series plug-in is meant to function as an EV with a range-extender, its a totally different animal, and will kill the parallel hybrids in economy for the average driver, unless you are you expecting 40+ mile battery range parallel hybrids by then.

Poor Mark, maybe his weed affected his decision to buy his lemon. Just remember the UAW built this and other junk and also their right to strike in 86 for outrageous wages/heathcare/etc.. This cost GM about 3-4 development programs. How many stikes have the Japanese had? They fight to keep inefficient plants open instead of buying from the market. Now people can't afford to buy their product. Wakeup before your computer job is outsources to India!

Stop the nonsense and evaluate products as they exist today not as they are in your mind. You just might change your opinion.

Posted by: Mark A | Mar 14, 2007 9:08:41 AM

I learned to drive in 73 Chevy Vega ... what a LEMON! I won't feel any pity for the company if they go under. They've dug their own grave (repeatedly) with short sighted decisions. Having said that, I won't hold the past against them if they can do the right thing now. If GM makes a PHEV, I'll take a serious look at it. This could be their very last chance to earn a little redemption.

I have owned alot of cars, but I never had a 73 Vega?????

But the best car I ever owned was a Chevy, a GM product. 77 Camaro, with a 305 (5.0L) V-8. Got 22-24mpg on the highway. Of course its catalytic exhaust wasnt quite as clean as todays cars, and its relative simplicity under the hood left alot of that periods auto technicians with free time on their (greasy) hands.

tmo,

you attributed the quote to the wrong person...

The Japanese don't get paid very much. They work "for the good of the company" while in the US people are more likely to work "for the good of themselves". The engineers/managers I work with (from Japan) love to be assigned to the US because it gives them a nice raise in salary and they end up making much more than their peers back in Japan. They still pay the US workers more though...the American VP gets paid about 3 times what the Japanese VP gets paid.

TMO8844: The Vega post was by a poster named "Neil", not "Mark A" as you stated.

What about all this labor union bashing?

We have 80+ % of our workforce in labor unions, and there are never any problems with shutting down factories or cutting jobs in the export industries. The workers know that their jobs depend on keeping the company competitive.

Of course, they also know that record profits means record wage increases, but that is just as it should be.

And what of all this insaninty about corporations financing retirements and health care?! That will surely hurt the companies, and also make sure unemployed people are hurt real bad, which in turn makes it a lot harder to fire people when that is needed.

Taxes are payed for these things, especially as it keeps companies more profitable and flexible. Or if you feel neoliberal, it is financed by individuals. The state or the individual should pay. Not a corporation. Or maybe they should pay my rent, milk and bread too?!

TMO: what weed are you on? I didn't buy the Vega .. I just learned to drive in it. I stated that regardless of that experience I would take a good look at the Volt if it were available.

For all people bashing on those who negotiate for the best employment deal they can get: do you voluntarily take pay cuts or undersell your worth? Employment is just another business deal.

GM could easily produce the Volt as a standard series hybrid, with a 5 kwh battery pack, which would be quite sufficient for this vehicle, and could be made in NiMH or Lithium, when the larger batteries are available it would be an easy modification. And their so-called E-Flex architecture is an inherent advantage of the EV drive train. If Tesla Motors had GM's bucks, they could easily sell the Tesla as a BEV with a 44 kwh battery pack, a Series Hybrid with a 3-5 kwh battery pack and 88 mpg using a high efficiency TDI diesel generator, a plugin Hybrid with a 10 kwh battery pack, or even a series hybrid fuel cell vehicle, if the much fabled automotive fuel cell ever becomes economical.

GM could have produced and sold the Volt 8 years ago, this quote is from GM-Ovonics in 1998:
“GM's series hybrid (using an electric motor to drive the front wheels) uses a compact micro gas turbine generator system to charge the GM Ovonic NiMH HEV battery pack while driving, which provides an effective fuel economy of nearly 100 miles per gallon (MPG) of reformulated gasoline! This is based on GM's anticipation that the series hybrid owner will plug the vehicle in overnight while parked in the garage (grid charging), leaving in the morning with the HEV batteries fully charged. Operating as an HEV only (no grid charging), the hybrid obtains 60 MPG highway and provides a 350 mile driving range. When the generator is running, tailpipe emissions are one half of California's stringent ultra low emission levels (ULEV). The very high power to energy ratio GM Ovonic NiMH battery provides ample power for acceleration (zero to 60 MPH in nine seconds) and offers a zero emission, EV only, driving range of 40 miles, significantly more than other HEV battery types can provide."

Lad, at 8:34 above said . .

**Why do you think Tesla's battery solution is based on lots of small capacity PC batteries? Answer: Because the patents for large capacity batteries are controlled by Big Oil! If you think this is a far out conspiracy theory, you haven't read enough about the battery industry. **

I must back up Lad here.

I read where Chevron bought patents for large format battery applications through Shell. This could be why Tesla is going small format, although I thought it was for a different type of battery. Scroll down. . .

TonyGuitar.blogspot.com

In any case, I think there is huge logic for *Big oil*, *Big Auto* and Government to slow the public access to EVs, [Electric Vehicles].

Government has to figure how to get massive road maintenance monies out of cars that only require 8 to 16 cents of *electric* charge / fuel.

Government will have to deal with massive unemployment when ICE industry shrinks and millions of man hours of casting and machining will end, not to mention, pumps, radiators, injectors, fuel tanks, exhaust and muffler/converter systems, oil, anti-freeze and dozens of other parts not required by electric motors.= TG

Folks, technological displacement has been going on for years. And with every change some of the displaced howl like stuck pigs. We need to shift off of fossil fuel, it is bad for the air and funds evil-doers. The folks who made vacuum tubes lost their jobs. Ditto for the ice delivery business. The business model of the American big three is outdated. They are doomed. Get over it. The first PHEV will probably be parallel, so there is time to shift jobs, but soon we will not need all those folks who do our smog tests.

"GM is perfecting the car that runs on Press Releases."

DS; Just had to tell you that comment has had me smiling for days, thanks!

:-)

A lot of good points made.

First, GM did make a lot of crappy cars in the last three decades. Some were bad in concept or design, some in poor assembly. And too were many bad in all three.

Second, the UAW did increase costs v. imports. But that had little to do with assembly quality, sales practices, and dealer behavior. That came from GM, or should I say, all American car companies. And it came from the top down.

GM looks - to me at least - as if it will be the only large US automaker to survive. And one reason is they have maintained a world-wide presence. Their new products and intent looks pretty good but they have to execute this time.

Cadillac is competitive, Saturn now has a solid product line, Buick is so-so stable, and new models for Chevy and Pontiac arrive soon.

It dawned on me how the Volt works. The engine runs at good efficiency in one band. So, the engine comes on and runs in that bad when the SOC requires it. This explains the 40 mile range requirement. The battery life might suffer if it were only 10 mile range.

There are some interesting comments on the GM product line, and the management thereof, which produced that general lack luster performance in the US products. I’m just guessing here, but the management hierarchy there seems to work the same as our political system, specifically our current US Attorney General and performance evals. It doesn’t seem to matter much what your performance is, it’s your political party affiliation. So over the years, if you were a good manager, chances are you couldn’t be politicking around and got axed, because you “served at the pleasure of the boss” So political hacks ran and are running the grand ship into the ground, but its still sea worthy.

If the ship sinks, you just blame it on someone else anyway.