Mario.

You don't understand. Norteamericanos want it all. You will have to pry their SUVs and big trucks from their cold, dying hands.

Weight reductions are for the rest of the world.

Marcus:

Compare this paper to the PHEV. Unlike this paper exercise, the advocates of PHEVs put their money where their mouthes are and actually modified existing Priuses and demonstrated beyond a doubt that it works.

Why should I give so much weight to the UCS when they can't produce a real life example? It's a paper exercise with some pretty strong arguments. But I reserve judgment until there are actual working examples on the road and their calculations are borne out under real world conditions.

One reason the new tech doesnt pop up in the minivan yet is reliablity figures. Minivans are sold based on reliability and passenger and cargo space. Thus they often use reliable and simple engines and transmissions and so on. Things that wont break down when you have to pick up your kid.

Now on the other hand a bybrid design is proving to be MORE reliable then conventional designs and as such if the cost goes down into the range of a minivans budget then we likely will stat to see high end hybrid minivans.

Minivans have shrinking market share and low profit margins. You will NOT see any automaker selling a combination "high tech" components in a minivan for sale in the US until the tech has become ubiquitous throughout their range (the Odyssey, for example, was one of the LAST Honda vehicles to receive the VTEC system).

I agree Cervus. One question is why aren't these current PHEVs being used as an example in this legal fight? Perhaps because the conversions still cost over $10000 and its untried technology. I think the main point here is although they haven't actually made it, on paper its designed using fairly standard technology and its less than $1000 more expensive initially which should be more than compensated for over the lifetime of the vehicle. Yes, to actually have made it would be even more impressive, but its now up to the automakers to show where their on-paper calculations are wrong. I didn't hear anyone here complaining that the automaker's claim that it couldn't be done wasn't backed up the failure of a real attempt. They didn't even come up with a paper argument to my knowledge, its been all verbage. Why come down so hard on the UCS?

The Dodge Sprinter is a very interesting example of a large capacity vehicle the gets better mileage than those SUVs we keep seeing in TV commercials. The UCS could have borrowed one and parked it outside the lobbyist's office GM and Ford hired to complain to Congress what can't be done. The Sprinter has a small turbo-diesel engine and a six-speed transmission just like the UCS design.

tom deplume,

How many Dodge Sprinters sell in the US? How many Dodge Sprinters are sold for personal use? Crash ratings, reliability, and cost of Sprinter versus other comparable vehicles?

That's not the point. The Sprinter competes against full-sized V8-powered GM and Ford vans (and uses a lot less fuel than those do). There's currently a technical emissions compliance problem with putting diesel engines into vehicles with less than 8500 lb GVWR, but the ULSD situation is in the process of fixing that.

Diesel engine + biofuel is a better and more effective and more practical solution than what UCS is proposing. Their proposal is a continuation of their anti-diesel propaganda, nothing more. The part about more efficient transmissions is valid, but VW already has this (DSG), and GM's upcoming two-mode hybrid transmission will address this and more.

Current Dodge Caravan has cast iron block, two valves per cylinder, 9.3 compression ratio, no VVT, pushrod engine with 3.3 liter displacement and output of 170 hp. Every other minivan on American market is the collection of oldest available technology too. Japanese the same, they just do not have such antiques at hand.

How to change this situation? I have no idea. I bet UCS too. They just exposed the problem.

BTW, as I know, there are no minivans with automatic transmission in Europe, and no minivans with manual in US.

Minivans make you feel old yet an SUV is the next best thing to sliced bread? What exactly is an SUV if it isn't a 4WD station wagon? Wasn't the station wagon the last "Mom mobile"?

$2 billion in advertisement telling people that their current vehicle isn't going to get them "lucky" and the result is what the "market" chooses? OK. Sure. As long as you ignore the finger prints on the steering wheel.

Advertizing isnt about telling you what you want itds about trying to convince people that what they want is in fact contained in that item they are making.

Poeple raly wanted something sprty and with intility.. so guess what they came up with.....

The want for sporty utility vehicles predates the sub and in fact they stumbled onto the scene by total accident.

Ots realy nothing different then everyone saying thiey have cheesy meaty pizza its a no brainer because people likely cheesy and they like meaty. Advertizing didnt do that it just lets em try to out cheesy out meaty others.

BUT you an try and make a new kind of cheesy meaty pizza... thats the crossover.

I guess I will have to tell the fashion industry that all their effort is for naught?

Horsepucks, wants aren't some kind of fixed given. Most of our current wants weren't even known a century ago.

There are limitations to what even a few billion in advertisement/marketing can achieve, but "the market" is most definitely a highly manipulated beast with numerous feedback loops.

Basic physical desires are likely to remain the same, but equivalent utility can be provided many different ways. Skim, 1%, 2%, whole milk, soy milk, yogurt. Just because they are all drinking whole milk now doesn't mean that equivalent or higher utility can't be met another way.

Oh well there i that group. The tenedy people.

You know the ones you laugh at as they sit at the side of the road in a pile of overpriced junk that breaks even before they can lose interest and buy new.

They serve thier pupose.. after all if not for them the blasted advertizers would be annoying US and of course when the clmate goes to hell and we all sart to starve the trendy will make wonderfuly tasty meals... assuming they arnt mostly plastic of course...