"gasoline fueled internal combustion engine..." Small diesel seems to be the ICE of choice for these applications. Maybe they misspoke.

The Phoenix pure EV truck was previously touted as having "up to 130" mile range. Now the web site is saying "100+" mile range, though I'm not sure if it was changed or if it said that all along (on the web site). If it was reduced, it would most likely be due to additional unexpected weight and other miscalculations. The various fleet customers they hope to have buy the EV may not be satisfied with either range, and could be what necessitated the need for a hybrid version. They will still be making the EV for those who can live with a 100+ mile range. The hybrid would be for those who need to frequently drive longer distances without having to have to buy a second vehicle. If the EV version works for you, then get one. If not, get the Hybrid.

What a bunch of maroons some of you guys are.
This is exactly what Phoenix should be doing and kicking GM's ass all the way to Nanosafe heaven. That's what competitive engineering is all about. I've read some (ok, much) of what Boob Lutz has been saying and I can see why the American auto industry is getting their heads handed to them. What a boob.
jojo

I see nothing wrong with offering choices to suite particular needs. I'm sure PG&E cnosidered the range when buying the first 4 Phoenix trucks. Looking at a potential 250K+ mile overall battery life with less maintenence than ICE vehicles makes it perfect for fleet use that utilizes 100+ miles a day. I'm sure since PG&E is a utility company they would have a quickcharge unit. PG&E will save tons of money in the long run when considering fuel costs and maintenence over time. Especially if you're able to do 20K+ charges. They also are in talks of purchasing 200 additional trucks a year. No Letter of Intent has been authorized yet but I'm sure it depends on the trucks certifications.

I like the fact that Phoenix is trying to put out a serial hybrid. When Altair first announced they were partnering up with UQM, Phoenix, and Boushart... it took under 1 year to get something on the road. At that rate... this new serial hybrid might start to be manufactured by the end of 2008. A few years in advance of the Volt. BTW a serial plug is probally the next best thing to have right now since no infrastructure for the next gen fuel stations are currently up and running. GM had the right idea... serial PHEV w/flex fuel genset. I wonder if Phoenix can beat them to the punch with a a half decent price tag. Let the race being!!!

Just some trivial info to put out there... I'm sure we're all aware that AES (a global utility company) has bought a 1.5% stake in Altair. Also in the last conference call Altair expressed concerns to broaden their horizons with possible stationary energy storage units. This article is my point...

--------------------------

RENO, NV -- April 23, 2007 -- Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. (Nasdaq: ALTI), a leading provider of advanced nanomaterials technology for use in energy, life sciences and industrial applications, today announced that Robert F. Hemphill, Executive Vice President, AES Corporation, has joined its Board of Directors.

"We are very pleased to have Bob Hemphill join our board of directors," said Alan J. Gotcher, Ph.D., President and Chief Executive Officer of Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. "Bob brings to Altairnano more than 25 years of experience at one of the world's largest global power companies. His depth of experience and expertise will be a powerful addition to our company, especially as we add new intensity to our Advanced Materials and Power Systems Business Unit and our Clean Energy Storage Initiative."

-------------------

I'm curious what the next generation Nanosafe's are going to be like.

AES is also one of the companies that is moving towards CGCC plants in order to make carbon capture easier. This sounds like a company with some vision.

Altair’s battery has usable energy of no less than 80 Wh/kg and peak power of whopping 4 KW/kg. It means that 20 kg (45 lb) battery, weighting less than regular car battery, will be capable of no less than 60 KW peak power and 1.6 KWh usable energy, way more than 40KW and 1/3 fraction of max energy of 1.7 KWh of Ni-Mh battery used in Prius.

Applications of Altair battery in HEV, PHEV, or BEV could be extremely advantageous.

you can read the press release here:
http://www.uqm.com/press/news/08-01.html

Audrey,

"Altair’s battery has usable energy of no less than 80 Wh/kg and peak power of whopping 4 KW/kg."

Could you please cite you source for the no less that 80Wh/kg specific energy? I have heard lots of different numbers bandied about and would like to nail it down!

Thanks,

Mike

Interesting that the original SsangYong Actyon SUT is supposed to use a 4-cylinder Mercedes turbo diesel, that could be nice.

D.
Believe me its not , its a nasty smelly old tech diesel , we have had
this model here in europe now for around a year .

K - To clarify, when you said "Still, I agree with Richard", what part(s) of "Horrible news. This is going backwards! If you want a range extender, bolt on a small generator in the bed and plug the damn thing in. Done." were you agreeing with?

To those who think this is just "vapourware" or a bad marketing model, I would have to disagree.

I just saw the actual prototype this past Sunday at the San Diego Earth day fair. It is impressive.

In speaking with the Phoenix representatives, I gleaned much useful information about the technology, it's development, and their marketing thrust.

The Korean built SUV did come with a diesel and, as was pointed out, is far too dirty for the North American market and falls far short of our California Standards. The current California standards, as well as the upcoming requirements, may forestall widespread diesel use, even with biodiesel. The SDSU (San Diego State University) entry into a student competition, is going through the application of particle traps, urea injection and Nox controls for their turbocharged biodiesel SUV. They feel they will meet the 49 state requirements, but most likely, not the Cali requirement. I do not think a matching diesel genset will be an easy task for anyone wanting to apply it as a range extender.

The SUV just completed frontal crash testing and passed with flying colors. No intrusion into the passenger compartment and no damage to the battery pack. They don't forsee any problems with completing safety crash requirements.

The 100-130 mile range is an average of differing driving styles. Some folks will get less, and some will get more. Just like a standard vehicle. They will have an option to add a more capable battery pack to get you into the 200 to 250 mile range. This cost will be on top of the 45,000 dollar asking price for the base model.

They see their immediate market as covering the Southern Cal area. Repairs and maintenance will be done at their Ontario facility, with "Travel service" or mobile technicians "on call" for outlying areas. The battery pack and drive train seem bulletproof in their cycle testing and a 250K mile life span seems very viable. Most service is going to be centered on tires, brakes and "goodies". Yes, this SUV is loaded with AC, DVD/CD players, GPS and such. Some of which is already going into their show truck. This is another reason the mileage per charge doesn't seem that impressive. It depends on the accessory usage.

Performance? I didn't get to drive it. But they drove it in, and drove it out! So it does run. My experience in driving electric cars with this kind of power to weight ratio says this SUV will have snappy performance. It will be speed limited to 95 mph.

As for the range extending genset? They would only say,"it is being discussed right now". I think, the idea is invariably going to be a simple one, so the series route is logical. You have a good BEV drive line, and a small but functional pickup bed. A range extending spark ignition generator that runs only as needed, could easily be slid in and out. You would have many options this way. You could lease or rent it only when a long trip is planned.

Extensive towing is not recommended.

Market appeal? Many of you say you would not buy this vehicle. My wife loves it! Many of the young ladies who stopped by and jumped into it liked it immediately. The "soccer mom" types were asking where they could put a down payment on one. I think Phoenix has a hit here. At least with the ladies. I tend to agree with my wifes outlook. She drives 7.8 miles to work. She has a list of malls in the area, and none of them are more than 15 miles away. She can lug her surfboards, kayaks and rollerblades to the beach ( two blocks away ) and carry three of her girlfriends with her! "What's not to like"! She likes to say. I like the cost outlook. The Mercedes she drives around in costs us thousands a year in fuel, maintenance, and upkeep. I can bet, the Phoenix SUV will be at least as competitive, if not better, in year to year costs. And if they do maintain their $45K asking price, they will be in the ballpark for a Mercedes SUV. At which point, I will buy one from Phoenix.

I would like to say "all the good luck" to the Phoenix company and their backers, but, honestly, I think these guys are past the stage of dumb luck. I think these guys are close. Closer than many other startups. Close enough that I will vote with my money on my next car purchase. I want a BEV, my wife wants a "cute SUV". To Phoenix . . . "Build it, and they will buy"!

Scott: I'm surprised you can still ask what Richard said that I agree with.

I explicitly said his bolt on a generator idea was not as simple as he thought. And I said why in at least two comments.

What I meant about agreeing with Richard was that Phoenix is taking the wrong route with a hybrid. I thought my words Wed. 4:26 pm. explained that clearly.

Why call this a step backward? Well, technically it isn't backward because Phoenix has never built hybrids. So there no possible step backwards. Instead, call it a misstep.

Phoenix faces enough problems in the pure electric field. But at least their competitors are not massive corporations already well ahead of them. The big players: GM, Ford, Toyota, et al. are going for hybrids, some serial some parallel.

Therefore I don't see a Phoenix hybrid getting anywhere. Better to stay with electrics, make them well, and not go head-to-head with people who spend billions and have 5000 dealers ready to show anything they make.

Some other commentators (RustyLugNut above) think Phoenix is making a good move. It is certainly fair to argue that. Such is the nature of business; you win if others are mistaken and lose if you are mistaken.

Richard, Cervus, and K,
I respectfully disagree. This is a great move!
Full performance EVs have two problems right now:
1. The Altairnano battery meets performance needs and just obliterates the cycle life problem, but they remain EXPENSIVE.
2. Your range is limited for a pure EV because there are NO ELECTRIC CHARGING STATIONS.
A Series PHEV based on this same Altairnano (Nanosafe) battery solves both problems. All Phoenix has to do is reduce the 35 kWh battery down to 15-20 kWh (reducing both weight and cost) and add a small, efficient generator. Fairly simple electronic controls are all that is required. A Series PHEV is just a full blown EV with a range extending generator added. Effectively they will be selling more EVs. This is just the temporary bridge solution we need right now. If this Phoenix PHEV has a 40 mile all-electric range, then 75% of USA drivers will not be using any fuel, except for an occassional long trip. This includes me. I will purchase one of these if they make one. This is exactly what I'm looking for.
Not all of us can afford to spend a fortune to purchase the large 200-250 mile range battery pack. Not all of us can afford to own an extra car used just for short distance commutes. This car will reach a larger customer base. An increasing sales volume will help bring the cost of the battery down, due to economies of scale in the manufacturing. More PHEV users will provide a customer base for electricity charging stations. These are the steps you need for wide spread transition to full blown EVs. This is NOT a step backwards. It will actually accelerate the transition to full blown EVs ...and maybe make Phoenix Motorcars a larger, healthier EV company too.

btw If it turns out this is a parallel/series PHEV, and not a pure Series PHEV, then I take back everything I said above. That would be a step backwards.

I completely agree with MDS on both points.

Just to throw out some other trivial info regarding the Nanosafe. Current battery costs stated by Grotcher in the last conference call is about $2/wh at current production levels (about $70000 per 35 kwh Nanosafe). Through higher production levels they hope to achieve $.33/wh (about $11500 per 35 kwh Nanosafe). The serial hybrid would probally use a smaller battery and if we use MDS' numbers of 15-20 kwh... than you're looking at a battery costing about $4950-$6600. If the Nanosafe holds true to their claim of 15000 charges than you're looking at (using only 25 miles per charge) a battery that will have a life of 375000-500000 miles.

Here's a few questions to ponder... If you have a battery that costs around $5500, how much will it costs to build a serial PHEV truck around that battery??? What will the sticker price be on such a vehicle??? Can Altair bring the costs down below $.33/wh??? What will the warranty be like for such a battery???

Mike:

90 Wh/kg: this number is indeed not widely advertised by Altair, because it is quite moderate. There are a lot of estimations, and only couple of direct references. This is one of them:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/symposium/presentations/house.pdf

Look at graphs at pages 10 and 18.

I would hope they would offer a PHEV version with the full 35 KWH battery with a electric mode only drawdown to 15% (85% DOD)so the AER would still be about 85 miles.

I feel identically to those who have stated a preference for a plug-in serial hybrid.

I have studied the parallel hybrid from Honda known as Integrated Motor Assist. It requires the ICE to be on all the time. Not optimal. The Toyota serial-parallel Hybrid Synergy Drive is very complicated and expensive even though it is a little more efficient at bringing power to the pavement when gasoline is your fuel.

The serial hybrid idea -- which is basically how almost all locomotives in the United States are operated -- is not as efficient as Toyota's drivetrain because the ICE never directly drives the wheels, but it is much simpler and more flexible.

Let me run a scenario by you all. With a serial hybrid, you can buy an electric car with empty space to insert an ICE. Since there is no direct connection between the engine and the wheels, you can find the engine which best suits your needs. It is not mated to a transmission. All it does is produce electricity. You can buy a diesel, gasoline, LNG, CNG, propane, ethanol, butanol, etc. generator based on where you live and what fuels are cheapest and readily available.

That way, GM can make one car body for the whole world. And you, the end user, decide what type of extender motor to put in there. And hell, you can leave that out if you don't need it. It is modular heaven. Plug and play. And manufacturers can focus on making gensets based on the consumer. Maybe a consumer wants to spend more for efficiency. He pays a premium for a low consumption ICE generator. Maybe he can't afford it. He pays for the medium efficiency. Maybe he prefers to fuel his car with natural gas from his home. He buys a CNG generator. But GM doesn't have to care. They make the car. Offer a small selection of generator sets and then allow it to be plug and play for other manufacturers to make optimized engines for a particular market. From a corporate point of view, it is like the IBM PC idea applied to cars. The automobile company produces a short range electric car and then the consumer decides what "cards" to put in it to expand its functionality. You can get into a 40 mile electric car with hybrid expansion capability for cheaper and add the electric generator when you want.

Now, will my idea take off? Don't know. But it sure is what most consumers who are into alternative energy want: options.

Ralph D. Taite

Van...

Taking into consideration the cost target Altair has for the Nanosafe through higher levels of production ($.33/wh), the 35 kwh Nanosafe will be just over $11k. Although rather cheap compared to current costs ($2/wh = $70k for the 35 kwh Nanosafe)... this price might be a lil high to bring the serial hybrid to a moderate consumer range (around $35k). Since 70% of Americans only commute 40 miles to and from work, there would be lil use for a 35 kwh Nanosafe. I'm thinking a 20 kwh Nanosafe would do the trick and only cost $6600 at $.33/wh.