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Toyota Announces Preliminary Fuel Economy Ratings for LS 600h L

26 April 2007

Toyota has released the preliminary EPA fuel economy ratings for the high-end luxury LS 600h L hybrid: 20 mpg city, 22 mpg highway, 21 mpg combined. (Earlier post.)

The hybrid’s powertrain, comprising a 5.0-liter V-8 engine and two electric motors, delivers a combined output of 438 hp. Fuel economy for the all-wheel drive hybrid is comparable to or better than that of some conventional V-6 all-wheel-drive mid-sized luxury sedans, according to Toyota.

April 26, 2007 in Brief | Permalink | Comments (20) | TrackBack (0)

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its still totally unnecessary, no one really really needs 438 hp
definitely the car for the psychopath with just a tiny inkling
of green conscience!

It appears the only thing "green" about this vehicle is the extra $$$$ Toyota gets to take to the bank! The regular LS460 gets better mileage (20/27mpg) for about $30,000 less Pete's sake!

I can see the conversations now:
"My luxury car is a Hybrid."
"Yeah, but it only gets 21mpg!"
"Yes, but it IS a Hybrid after all."

Like PT Barnum said, "a fool is born every minute."

Ahh, marketing. Mark my words, Lexus will sell every one (at a mark-up even). (There are plenty of "limosine liberals" in this country who can afford them)

When you see these on the road they will serve as stark reminders that material wealth has very little to do with individual intelligence.

Correction, the LS460's MSRP is $61k and delivers 19/27mpg. The stretch LS460's MSRP is $70k and delivers 18/27mpg.

Bypass the "hype-brid" LS600h and get either LS460. It will save you $30k-$40k, pollute less and deliver better mileage with similar performance.

I suppose the extra dough for the LS600h is a small price of admission for the ultra exclusive "environmentalists."

Congratulations Toyota, with the LS600h, you have created the quintessential "Hype-brid."

DieselHybrid:
Well said.

I look at the specs for this car, and I wonder...why bother?

dieselhybrid
The ls600hl is an all wheel drive vehicle with 438 H.P.
The ls460l is a rear wheel drive vehicle with 380 H.P. These are 2 very different cars that just happen to be sharing all of their sheetmetal:-)
The 460 is considered to be competing with the 5 series mercedes, whereas the 600 is competing with the 7 series mercedes.

Neither vehicle is in any way green, but the hybrid gives the owner the status of having a more technologically superior car to all of those lowly BMWs and Mercedes'.

I think the point of this car is twofold.

1 - to differentiate lexus from other extremely high end luxury cars

2 - to convince the world of how sexy a hybrid is. They want you to shop hybrids not to save gasoline, but to keep up with the joneses.


andrichrose-
Your right. nobody needs 430 H.P.. There are alot of old 18 wheeler big rigs out there on the freeways with ALOT less horsepower than this. I'm pretty sure this car has nothing to do with needs.

While I agree that the LS600h is mostly pointless, we all have to agree that there will be people who cares little about saving gas, or view a vehicle as sensible transportation.

Like it or not, "hybrid" is just a term for automotive design. For the bashers, hybrids has become a symbolism, and we should not fall into that trap.

For people who care about using less gas, we should not be so upset if hybrid technology is used for other purposes. If the 600 takes sales away from other vehicles that would do 9-15 mpg, then it's still a win in my book.

The 2008 EPA numbers are calculated using a different set of tests and thus cannot be directly compared to 2007 EPA numbers. In general, city is lower by 2-3 and highway by 1-2. This is supposed to better approximate real-world results.

I collect real world fuel economy data at my site. Results so far here:

http://www.truedelta.com/fuel_economy.php

by the new EPA standards, the 460 L gets 16/24, so this is a big improvement.
coal burner also makes a very important point about the fact that 600h is 4wd while 460 is RWD. considering a savings of 25% in gas, on top of more wheels actually driving, that's pretty good. compare to the bmw 760, which gets roughly the same horsepower, but again, has only rear-wheel drive and gets 13/20 – that's now an almost 50% improvement in mileage with more wheels! something also tells me that since the BMW has "no" air pollution score, with nearly 11 tons CO2/yr, while the LS is expected to be SULEV-certified, the pollution impact will be significant as well.

again, the people who buy this car wouldn't be buying a prius anyway, so it's useless to say that this car is greenwashing, etc. what matters is that people will buy this, and they will be saving gas and the air. that's pretty good. just look at the sales of the GS hybrid vs. its top-of-the-line gasoline-only counterpart, and consider the gas savings there.

i'm just glad that this car is that much closer to shipping.

O.K.- You'd like "green" with your luxury? Here are just two examples of clean diesels available across the pond (and heading our way):

BMW 730Ld turbodiesel: 231bhp and 384ft-lbs torque (more than adequate) with a combined EU cycle fuel economy rating of 30mpg and CO2 emissions of only 216g/km or approximately 2 tons of CO2 emissions every 12,000 miles.

or

BMW 745d: 330bhp and 553ft-lbs torque (somewhat excessive power!) with a combined EU cycle economy rating of 25.3mpg and CO2 emissions of 251g/km or approximately 2.4 tons of CO2 emissions every 12,000 miles.

For comparison the "Hype-brid" LS600h delivers 21mpg combined which equates to roughly 320g/km in CO2 emissions or over 3 tons of CO2 emissions every 12,000 miles. Green indeed!

but what about other emissions? GHG isn't the only thing out there. the M-B E320 bluetec has an "air pollution score" of 3 from the EPA. and this is with blutec, meeting current emissions guidelines – my guess is that the beamers will be nowhere even close. guess where the LS will be? as sulev – at least an 8.
i've said this before – sorry, but i'd rather have clean air; keep the NOx and CO out. the difference in scores means that the bluetec emits nearly 10x as much NOx and twice as much CO.

I'd rather import less foreign oil. Diesel is inherently more energy dense, and diesel engines are 50% more thermodynamically efficient thus burn less fuel for a given output. To top it off, you can run a bio-diesel mix and further reduce consumption of foreign oil.

I'm puzzled; how does burning less fuel (less combustion) result in more CO emissions?

Additionally, Tier2 Bin 5 requirements are even more NOx stringent. That standard (or better) is probably what our EPA will insist on for our market.

Finally, last time I bought a laptop here in CA I was charged a "battery disposal" fee/tax because the batteries are considered HAZMAT. Not to mention how much energy is involved in the production of said batteries. I think we really ought to take a full look at the entire lifecycle when assessing the environmental impact of so-perceived (marketed) "green" vehicles.

From a lifecycle perspective, the LS600h is probably not much "greener" than a Hummer H3!

I feel that Toyota slapped on a "Hybrid" label on this vehicle with the intent to capitalize on the public's perception that "hybrid" = "green."

It appears that most of us on this forum have seen through their marketing fascade.

DieselHybrid

1. Your LS600h CO2 calculation is off. A 21 mpg gas burner has almost the same g/km rating as a 25 mpg diesel. This is because a gallon of diesel contains about 17% more carbon than a gallon of gasoline.

2. Diesel engines are not, in general, 50% more thermodynamically efficient. The best TDI measurement I've seen is VW's at 44% thermal efficiency. The previous Prius was measured at 38% and the current Prius is believed to be 40%. The VW Golf GT comes in both TDI (diesel) and Twincharger (gasoline) versions. Both have the same power and torque ratings and perform about the same. The TDI is about 8% more fuel efficient on a mass basis (e.g. km/kg), so the thermodynamic efficiency gap is almost certainly less than 10%. This gap will probably narrow as gasoline engines become more "diesel-like".

Note that the Golf GT TDI is more expensive -- put a mild hybrid on the Twincharger to equalize the costs and the fuel efficiency gas would disappear.

3. CO emissions (and NOx, HC, etc.) are more a function of HOW the fuel is burned than how much is burned. This is different than CO2, which is almost purely of function of how much fuel is burned.

4. Where did Toyota, or anyone on this forum, claim the LS600h is "green"?

--ddw

"From a lifecycle perspective, the LS600h is probably not much "greener" than a Hummer H3!"

Oh, there we go again, just because there is extra costs in parts for a hybrid, then it'd suddenly equate to all the wasted gas and pollution of a Hummer.

As Toyota and other studies have pointed out, 80%+ of a vehicle's energy usage is used during the driving stages. Yes, there is the Extras involved with hybrid related components, but the energy savings during the driving cycle has MORE than make up for it. I've given up on the pointless debates about diesel vs. hybrid debate, but people need to laid off that myth about energy usage of a Hummer versus a hybrid.

To clarify:

The Hummer H3 is rated at 15/20mpg as per 2007 standards. This should be closer to 14/18mpg w/2008 standards. When you take into account the LS 600h's batteries (HAZMAT here in CA) that need to disposed of, it isn't that much of a stretch to say that the LS600h isn't much cleaner than an H3.

The best Diesel cycles deliver around 44% thermal efficiency. The best Otto cycles run around 20-25% thermal efficiency (yes- they're improving). Thus claiming that diesels are 50% more thermally efficient than gasoline (Otto) counterparts is, again, not a stretch (the difference between 25% and 44% is 19% which is an almost 50% improvement).

don't forget that diesel requires higher temperatures for production from raw crude (so the energy density payoff isn't that great in the grand scheme of things). batteries can be recycled, and most are, because there's plenty of precious metal there that can be reused. can't really say that for a hummer h3. and what's this hazmat business? diesel is hazmat too, but that doesn't stop you from considering it to be holy.
again, look at emissions. the hummer h3 emits over 11 tons of CO2 a year and has an air pollution score of 6. and unlike you, i'm not just calling out numbers in the ballpark – go look at the EPA's site yourself to check them. (btw, its fuel econ by new methods is 14/18)

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Diesel is less refined than gasoline. How can it require more heat to produce when gasoline requires that step in addition to several more?

i have a noha toyota town ace i need to get the co2 admisson 4that?how can i find that?

i have a noha toyota town ace i need to get the co2 admisson 4that?how can i find that?

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