I read all your comments, and I honestly appreciate the words of moderation, consolation, and reassurance, as well as those of support. So lay these few facts out before yourselves:

-the EV1 and Rav4 were functioning in the 1990's using old NiMH battery technology.

-the car companies killed the programs citing 'lack of demand' when as we've all seen documented all too clearly in 'Who Killed the Electric Car', the demand was, and is ever more greatly, there.

-here we are, a decade later, with radical new technology/energy and power density in Li-ion batteries, and somehow, we still can't get even a decent plug-in hybrid electric. Note Bob's post above at 4:22 AM referring to the ICE parts and service racket that these harlett car companies are addicted to.

With these observations and others in mind, can anyone seriously say "oh, it's the technology, it's just not there yet"?

I resubmit to you that it is not the technology or the risks, or whatever. I mean, they can afford to produce new and ever more rediculous models of the same old crap over and over again, but they can throw a decent battery pack on it and a dingle?

The American car companies have sucked off of the tax payers nipple for a long time, and even then, due to there arrogance and incompetence, they are losing miserably to the Japanese. I think it is reasonable and right to criticize them for not yet producing the obvious and important, PHEV. Just give me 20 miles all electric and OPEC can kiss my ass!!!!!

correction for post at 9:49 PM.

...but they *can't* throw a decent battery pack on it and a dingle?

The next couple of years are going to be extremely interesting in the field of automotive engineering. The attempt by the oil companies to move diesel ICEs back into the American market and the rush, with government assistance, to bio fuels are measures to continue with the current system of building complicated, inefficient ICE power systems and the required equally complicated and expensive emissions controls. it never made sense to me to build a dirty, inefficient, internal explosive engine and then spend all that money to clean up the dirty gases it creates.

I intend to drive my old Volvo and wait for the BEV family sedan. If more people would wait it might speed development of the battery-driven family sedan.

It couldn't be clearer that NiMH sucks and is totally impractical for plug-in duties - 120 year old lead acids are better overall than NiMH.
I'm amazed that so much ignorance exists about the Chevy VOLT. The VOLT is slated for production and, judging by the recent statements from A123 Systems, they will be providing the batteries. There is an awful
lot of silly chatter about GM's intentions that tells me that many out there simply aren't paying attention to what's going on. Perhaps the lies spread by "Who Killed the Electric Car?" die hard. I have a hard time explaining how so many viewers could be so gullible
and swaloow the silly conspiracy theories in that film.
They seem to lack any ability to think logically, because none of those theories are even remotely plausible to a semi-intelligent human being.

Kerry:
"120 year old lead acids are better overall than NiMH"
I'm not saying that NiMH are all that great but your little piece of hyperbole hurts your credibility.
Compared to lead acid NiHM has better weight,energy and cycle life
Price is the only meaningfull advantage lead acid has over NiMH. (note: I'm not including firefly in this statement)

And unusually interesting thread. Thanks to Joey for kicking it off. The bottom line is that none of us really know what's going on behind the scenes. We throw the facts and rumors that pop up into a bag, shake them up and then try to make sense out of the mix. There's probably at least a shadow of truth to everything said on this subject and to all the comments made on the article. To all those who think big auto, represented by the likes of USABC and a jillion high paid lobbyists, are simply not nimble or brave enough to make a clear decision and quickly take decisive action, they should examine recent history.
"Who killed the electric car" only touched on who killed the California zero emission initiative. Further examination of that era shows that the car companies and oil companies were instantly decisive in their goal to kill this initiative. They moved with lightning speed to assemble attorneys and public relations people. They funded this effort without hesitation. They employed lies and deception and of course lobbying to achieve their goal of snuffing out the California initiative and grinding its remnants under their boot heels. Big auto and big oil should pat themselves on the back. They proved they can get together on a common goal and execute like a Blitzkrieg. All that was left after that success was to round up and crush the few EVs that had seeped out as a result of California initiative. Job done.

"I'm not including firefly in this statement"

You might as well, they don't even have a product for sale yet. They have some promising technology but it's going to be a while before they build up packs and validate them for automotive use.

As for everyone talking about A123 lets not forgot that they have a development agreement with Cobasys for the GM vehicles, thats what the two new battery lines were developed for.

The next prius will have a lithium battery, but lets no one else can buy those batteries because Toyota has majority ownership of Panasonic EV Energy.

Nice thing about nLiFePO4 is that it will enable a lot of new entrants (such as Tesla, but mainly from China and Korea) in the automotive industry, due to the manufacturing simplicity of the vehicle, and who will provide stiff competition, and cause these monopoly capital hacks to lose their jobs to downsizing, and then they will have to finally STFU.

If you think you have most or all of the answers then stop doing what you do right now and start a firm that produce and sell EV or PHEV. Don’t come up with any excuses just do it if you think you know how to.

Its called economics (or capital). The entry fee into this game starts from $100 million. I suppose you have this sort of capital and you are going put it in my project, right?

Beek if one are truly clever and know all the answers then it is also possible to get the necessary money from people who got it. Just like Tesla’s founders although we still need to see whether they will prevail.

How come nobody has pointed out the cost? A PHEV battery today will cost the OEM about $100,000.

Also, these conversion kit strategies can't be used by OEM's. After the conversion, the vehicles don't even come close to meeting emissions (CO, HC, NOx) standards.

Steve, the cost of nLiFePO4 (A123) is now at $400/KWh to OEM.

A 20KWh nBEV battery will cost only $8,000 and give you 80 miles of range, without charging. This is bound to drop to $4,000 in the next 3 years.

Your $100,000 figure is wierd.

Beek, where do you get the $400/kWh OEM price for A123 cells? That's a huge drop from their recent pricing. Also, do battery makers who buy their LiFePO4 from Phostech price their cells significantly below A123? Thanks in advance.

The article is a whole lot of "saying nothing" in my opinion. If they had any incling of common sense then they would check out who uses Li-ion or Li-pol batteries now. Just for example the model aircraft and even full scale sailplanes (Antares) have been developing these 'models' for years and I even have some of my own battery-motor models, in MATLAB too! Its not very difficult if you have the will! These large companies just have no idea of how to tackle problems beyond what they already know or do. Small companies are certainly the only form of creative enterprise capable of tackling these tasks, unless of course the large company is a not for profit institution...Bosch perhaps? We as consumers have to learn to support the start-ups if we want this technology to succeed. In the process that means consumers taking risks, i.e. buying products that do not have the Toyota, VW,GM, Ford etc stamp of approval and the associated guaranty of performance. But this means the consumer researching the product and we have become less inclined to do that and tend to buy "brands' as it is the easy and "safe' thing to do. SO it is somewhat understandable that these 'safe' companies develop product for consumers who make 'Safe' decisions.

mike_A wrote:

"I can understand that the[y] want the Govt in on this. To have the rug pulled out from underneath you after a billion dollar investment is not fun. I don't condone it as Toyota ha[s] managed to do the job without any real help, but that is the big buisiness way."

US auto manufacturers have had their heads in the sand for over a decade.

If I have any sympathy for US car manufacturers, it stems from the way that health care costs are paid here. International companies are not on the hook for the hospital bills of their retirees the way that American companies are.

I would offer GM, Ford, and Chrysler a trade. The US taxpayer will underwrite PHEV development in this country in exchange for:

1) A binding obligation to actually produce and sell high-efficiency vehicles, on a fairly short timetable -- no repeat of the PNGV bait-and-switch;

2) Their full participation in an effort to convert the United States to a proper public health care system.

I passed on this article when published since it seemed like SSDD from USABC. (MLA -- Millikin Likes Acronyms.)

But, reading the commentary later was entertaining.

1) Joey, it's dongle, not dingle. Keep ranting!

2) Lee, well, we would know if you had agreed to go undercover, dress in drag and infiltrate. That was missed opportunity, sweetie.

3) Neil, all those USABC millions were for PCR (Preliminary Concept Readiness). P.S. Maybe some Gestalt therapy would help? (wicked grin) Keep ranting!

Electric vehicles where batteries are used instead of a fuel cell in a skateboard fomat such as that on the GM Hywire along with its drive by wire system and in wheel electric motors would allow for many different cars to use identical and easily changeable components. Such a universal system would allow car companies to make many designs with minimal costs. The car companies could easily supply such cars now especially for the luxury market which can absorb the additional battery cost. Market them as fast, stylish and convenient and they will sell like mad. The a123 batteries are powerful, fast charging and long lasting. If the car companies dont know a good thing when they see it they, the american consumer and the environment will suffer for it.

It's too bad so many people are blinded by the BS that GM gives us. GM only gave us the EV1 after the California Air Resource Board forced them to. And they fought against it tooth and nail! Then, they took back the EV1's from people who didn't want to give them up. Then, they crushed them, every last one of them.

Well, Duh ! Does anyone really believe them when they say,"Just a few more years, we promise" ? Bull sh..
and more bull sh.. If anyone truly wants an affordable, all electric, consumer friendly, vehicle, then they have to work hard to get laws passed demanding it from the automakers. Otherwise, don't hold your breath. The automakers have already shown their true intentions, by their actions ! Good grief !

The all electric vehicle is our true answer to substantial reductions in carbon dioxide emissions. We could have it, in as little as one or two years, if GM wanted to. All GM has to do is start production of the EV1 again, utilizing the lithium-ion batteries. If GM demanded lithium-ion battery packs on a reasonable scale, they'd have them, and fast.

The whole story from GM and other US automakers is just a line of BS. All we are ever going to get is more excuses, and more sly attempts to give us something besides the all electric vehicle. The auto makers are all about greed.

The truth is, we've got to pass laws to get the all electric, affordable, consumer friendly, vehicle.

If the cost of the much awaited A123 battery for the chevy volt come down I think there may be hope. However if you look below the surface you will find that one of the companies involved in the product development is non other than Cobasy which is a subsidiary of Chevron technologies , these pigs were the ones who bought the intellectual patent rights from Stanley Oshinsky the developer of the nickel metal hydride battery in the 90's. This battery technology was used in the all electric vehicle the EV 1. The vehicles were scraped by GM shortly after the acquisition of those patent rights, big surprise huh. Currently Cobasys is in a legal battle with the production teem developed to produce the breakthrough discovery energy storage systems by a123 systems out of Watertown MA. Apparently Cobasys claims to be loosing their shirt and wants more money , they are attempting to slow the product development down through legal wrangling as usual this should not surprise anyone. It is quite obvious that until gasoline hits $5.00 or $6.00 a gallon the American people will continue to be fat, lazy, and apathetic in regards to what their federal government does or doesn't do in response to the obvious critical subject of energy and transportation. I fear the supermarket shelves will need to become bare for a couple of months(truckers strike) before they get of their corporate puppet jackasses and pass legislation to promote, produce, and enact electric vehicle mandates for infrastructure development and mandatory implementation of electric vehicle fleets for municipalities along with all government vehicles including the limousines they drive around in.