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Report: Honda Will Not Produce Hybrid Version of New Accord
2 June 2007
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| Monthly US sales of the Accord Hybrid. Click to enlarge. |
The Nikkei Sunday edition reported that Honda will not introduce a hybrid model of the new Accord when the sedan undergoes a full design change in the autumn for the North American market.
Honda will release gasoline-electric hybrid versions only of the Civic and of its new small hybrid model currently under development for 2009 (earlier post), according to the report. Honda will equip mid-size and large vehicles such as the Accord with its new Tier 2 Bin 5 diesel engine. (The Accord is one of the demonstrator vehicles for the new diesel engine technology.) (Earlier post.)
Honda plans to promote the clean diesel engine it is developing as its key environmental technology, according to the report, differentiating itself from Toyota’s concentration on hybrid vehicles.
Honda began selling the Accord hybrid in North America in December 2004. Sales have been trending downward over the last two years. In May 2007, Honda sold 439 of the Accord hybrids—down 16% from May 2006, and accounting for only 1.4% of all Accord models sold in the month.
Honda ceased production of its first hybrid, the Insight, in September 2006. Introduced in December of 1999, the Insight was the first mass-produced hybrid sold in the US, beating the Toyota Prius to the North American market by a matter of months. (Earlier post.)
June 2, 2007 in Hybrids, Sales | Permalink | Comments (67) | TrackBack (0)
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disappointing.....with the more powerful electric motor from the Civic and the latest version of VTEC/VCM that they are promising, this could have been a big seller.
The fact of the matter is that it could have been the sportiest hybrid sedan made (yes, even moreso than the Lexus GS, in my opinion). All they had to do was offer a sport package with things like 17" rims, fog lights, etc. I think they are ignoring a potentially huge market segment. Nissan is attempting this with the Altima, but it's still half ass. I have no idea why I cannot get the same Xenon headlights, 17" rims, and fog lights offered on the V6. If I could, I would buy one tomorrow.
Posted by: Angelo | Jun 2, 2007 11:11:17 AM
Yup.
And they are, instead, bringing a diesel that will get better mileage with a far less complicated drive train, that runs on renewable fuel that can be produced domestically and cheaply, if LiveFuels (http://www.livefuels.com/) or a competitor pans out, and that can be phased in incrementally with todays existing distribution system.
Hybrids might make people feel better about themselves, but they are not the answer. Pure-electric (if batteries come around) and/or algae-based biofuels are the way. Let's hope that the absurd ethanol crazy doesn't completely ruin the publics perception of biofuels.
Cheers,
prat
Posted by: praetorian | Jun 2, 2007 11:38:37 AM
This is a good decision. It would have required a total rework to sell in the $30-$35K hybrid market.
The Accord Hybrid is very nice. It is also heavy and saves very little gas. The list price is high although what they sell for may be another matter.
So we were offered a plush, heavy, complex, sedan that was very quick but used FWD and handled so-so. What could go wrong?
I drove Accords for 17 years. But when I bought a car this year I never looked twice at the Hybrid Accord.
Their diesel developments and ideas look promising. In 2009 I may be buying again.
Posted by: K | Jun 2, 2007 12:02:12 PM
Hybrids might make people feel better about themselves, but they are not the answer. Pure-electric (if batteries come around) and/or algae-based biofuels are the way.
Bunk.
Posted by: bbb | Jun 2, 2007 12:16:06 PM
Hybrids might make people feel better about themselves, but they are not the answer. Pure-electric (if batteries come around) and/or algae-based biofuels are the way.
Double Bunk.
An improvement is an improvement. Using the the 2008 EPA estimates, the first generation Accord (mild) Hybrid improved V6 mileage from 18/26 to 24/32, while improving performance (most noticeably where you use it - low end). That is still better than the 4-cylinder Accord (21/31). Before you extremists start ranting about that not being good enough, think about it. You aren't going to get people who drive V6 sport sedans to just quit cold turkey and go to a Civic hybrid. However, if you can convince a lot of those people that they can get similar, sporty performance and save a good deal of gas, you might just have a pretty good sized market segment. Honda was almost there. Poor option packages and bad marketing are to blame.
The bottom line is that Honda already has the technology in their parts bin, so I cannot see how disbanding this achieves anything. They had the more powerful IMA from the Civic and an improved VTEC/VCM system coming out with this latest generation Accord, which would have assuredly improved those MPG numbers. They could have still pursued the diesel option in addition to this. The last time I looked, the Accord was a pretty high volume vehicle!
Posted by: Angelo | Jun 2, 2007 12:28:40 PM
I do not know if hybrids are THE "answer", assuming we know the question in the first place, but they can help. It is clear that the Accord V6 hybrid is not selling very well. Maybe the Lexus high end V6 hybrids might, but this is a luxury niche market.
It is basically a marketing exercise. Find out if there are a group of people that would actually BUY an Accord V6 hybrid at the price before you even think about designing one.
This is pretty fundamental and people will say that of course they do this. If they did and I assume they did, they missed it by a mile and the marketing people should be looking for new jobs, if they can find them.
Posted by: sjc | Jun 2, 2007 12:48:37 PM
If you are going to tag a vehicle with the Hybrid name, it had better get pretty good mileage. Otherwise people who buy it are going to be disappointed and will express it to there friends and post it on the Internet.
Then you get sales results like you see on the graph.
Then you will have to stop making them.
Posted by: Lucas | Jun 2, 2007 12:49:28 PM
Wonder if this will make Toyota N.America drop the new D4D engine into the Camry. Last I read on GCC, they had reduced emissions even further using D-CAT technology and particle filter.
Spec:
New T180 flagship model, exclusively powered by new 2.2-litre D-4D 180 engine
- 175bhp (177 DIN hp) and maximum 400Nm from 2,000rpm
- 46.3mpg (combined cycle), 161g/km carbon dioxide emissions
- 0-62mph in 8.6 seconds, top speed 137mph
Good option to have, hybrid for city dwellers, diesel for long commuters, seems like the market is opening up. Let's see what Honda do!
Posted by: vin | Jun 2, 2007 1:13:22 PM
A real world 24/32 rating in a 250+ HP vehicle is pretty good mileage.....
Posted by: Angelo | Jun 2, 2007 2:10:52 PM
I would like to have seen the new Accord coupe with a four cylinder hybrid trim level. Prius, Camry, Civic, Sentra, all four doors, same with the SUV hybrids. Don't through a BIG 2.4L in there, but give it more than just a 1.5L ya know. Don't price it over $30k and they might have had something I think.
Then again, while I think it would be successful I know it wouldn't break any sales records. I could see how a diesel accord could help do that. Plus I think people would be more willing to try a diesel if it came from Honda than compared to any of the big 3 or VW.
Posted by: Eric | Jun 2, 2007 3:59:19 PM
Hybrids might make people feel better about themselves, but they are not the answerSo WTF is the question???
and/or algae-based biofuels are the way.This is so F*ing stupid! What are you going to do with your biofuel, use it for salad dressing. If you want to move around you'll have to burn it in a combustion engine. Combustion engines always work best at one steady-state condition. That's why the hybrid was invented.
Posted by: DS | Jun 2, 2007 6:10:16 PM
Nothing can beat the good feeling of driving a full hybrid HEV like the Prius. At traffic stop and low speed, there is NO vibration and complete silence. No 4-cylinder car can do that, and a diesel engine will vibrate even more at idle than a gasoline engine, given the higher compression. The electricall AC and the associated automatic climate control gives gentle cool air without having to cycling back and forth making you too cold and too warm. No diesel will come close to the Prius AT-PZEV emission rating, having 80% less emission than a comparable car.
The HEV Prius has twice the overall mpg of a comparable vehicle (55mpg from my actual driving in comparison to a Honda Accord 4-cylinder at 27-28mpg). No diesel-powered Accord can double the mpg of a comparable hypothetical full hybrid version, may be 25% better or so.
It's not hard to make a full-hybrid version of the Accord. Use a 1.6kwh battery capable of ~28kw peak output, a 50kwh motor driving the wheels directly even at the rear axle, and a 1.6-1.8 L Civic engine at ~110hp rating coupled to a generator/starter having ~30kw. The engine will drive the front axle with a single stage planetary gear set giving it a two-speed capability. The very simple 1-gear stage transmission and the low-cost Civic engine will partially make up for the extra cost of the battery and motor/generator set. At low speed and coasting, the engine is declutched from the front axle, and the car is driven completely by the motor. At acceleration, the engine will be clutched to the front axle at low gear equivalent of 3rd gear or so, and at cruise, the engine is shifted to high gear, equivalent to 5th gear or so, where the engine will be lugged down to about ~1600 rpm to get the maximum economy. Mild to moderate acceleration will be boosted by the 50kw motor and higher acceleration will downshift the engine to 3rd gear while still receiving motor boost.
The above setup will avoid patent infringement of the Toyota HSD while giving comparable mpg and performance with perhaps higher demand from the battery than the Toyota set up. However, very durable A123 lithium battery will step up to the plate, having very high specific power and very high number of charge-discharging cycles.
Posted by: Roger Pham | Jun 2, 2007 6:32:24 PM
In general, I think we're still going through the very early growing pains of our transition to much greener transportation. There will a lot of successes, a few failure (like the current Accord Hybrid), and a whole lot of experimentation. The fun is just getting under way.
I'm happy to see Honda go diesel in the new Accord. This car could be a major milestone in terms of re-educating US drivers about what a modern diesel can be, in addition to the benefits mentioned by others above.
Posted by: Lou Grinzo | Jun 2, 2007 7:20:47 PM
Not all the automotive managers that are stupid and shortsighted work in Detroit...
T2B5 diesels are really still PRETTY DIRTY. They correspond to early '90s gasoline engine technology in emission levels. And the fuel supply for them will only continue to increase in price.
Modern gasoline engines including ALL the ones for sale in CA, and the 8 sisters, conform to T2B3 or better levels. It is easy to predict that no sooner will the auto makers offer T2B5 models; only to see CARB demanding a schedule to meet T2B3 or better, without much of a window, either.
CARB will do this for fear that these T2B5 diesels will degrade the currently achieved levels of air quality of the Californian auto fleet.
Posted by: Stan Peterson | Jun 2, 2007 7:27:45 PM
"the first generation Accord (mild) Hybrid improved V6 mileage from 18/26 to 24/32, while improving performance (most noticeably where you use it - low end). That is still better than the 4-cylinder Accord (21/31)."
The problem here is that if you want to save gas and money, the Accord sedan with 4 cyl and manual(26/34 mpg) can be had for a list price of $18,625. While the Hybrid (28/35 mpg) lists for $31,000. There is no way that you will save enough gas to make up for the $12,000 list price difference.
My mpg figures came from Edmunds.com.
At any rate I think that a Diesel Accord is great idea, and I might buy one to replace my 2002 V6 when the time comes in a few years.
Honda has discovered that no one wants to pay extra for a hybrid to save gas, they want to impress their neighbors and to do that, they have to have a hybrid only model. The insight was too small to be useful and salable in the American market. Their next hybrid will do better. And the diesel will give them talking points against MB and VW.
Posted by: Robert Schwartz | Jun 2, 2007 8:04:25 PM
Simply put, Honda cannot compete with Toyota on hybrids. The Civic puts Honda's great engine experience to work but the electric part is not much better then GM's BAS hybrid system (Yes, I admit its better though).
With GM's dual mode system comming out Honda will be #3 in hybrids not #2. Honda just has not devoted the resources in this arena. While GM has squandered tons of goodwill and wasted huge sums of money on crap like hydrogen they still have put more good research and money into hybrids then Honda.
I hope this 2009 small hybrid is good because its going to be competing with the third gen Toyota Prius and maybe even a real electric offering from others. I like Honda but I am watching fall behind.
Posted by: hampden wireless | Jun 2, 2007 9:19:12 PM
The problem here is that if you want to save gas and money, the Accord sedan with 4 cyl and manual(26/34 mpg) can be had for a list price of $18,625. While the Hybrid (28/35 mpg) lists for $31,000. There is no way that you will save enough gas to make up for the $12,000 list price difference.
Why don't you compare a Golf with a Corvette while you're at it.
Posted by: aba | Jun 2, 2007 9:21:50 PM
Looks like I need to snap up an Accord Hybrid before they stop making them. Sweet ride.
Posted by: norton | Jun 2, 2007 9:23:27 PM
Honda IMA not much better than GM's BAS...get real.
Like user "aba" I also hate it when people compare the bottom of the line no frills trim level with the top of the line fully loaded hybrid trim level. Why don't you compare apples to apples and get cars that are similarly equipped for crying out loud.
Bring on the diesel-electric car.
Posted by: Eric | Jun 3, 2007 5:02:36 AM
Diesel is already selling for about 20 cents less per gal in my area than regular, and 40 cents less than hi-test. Why? Has the switch begun at the refinery to extend more capacity to diesel with more cars coming on line in 2008 & 2009?
Posted by: Dave Lazur | Jun 3, 2007 5:28:59 AM
Welcome to the real world , when you have your cities choked
with diesel pollution , like we have here in europe, that twenty cents
a gallon difference is going to pale into insignificance!
Diesel is a killer , no matter how clean the car companies
tell you it is !
Posted by: andrichrose | Jun 3, 2007 6:06:36 AM
Before those who welcome diesels get too excited, they should stand near the exhaust pipe of any diesel in existence and try to breathe. Diesel particulates are a known carcinogen and the sooner we rid the world of that outdated technology, the better. All-electrics (BEVs or battery-electric vehicles) are the smartest option for the future. To those who think BEVs are little more than slow golf carts with no range, consider the EV-1 that GM killed off, the RAV-4 that Toyota killed, the current Commuter Cars Tango (like George Clooney drives, 0-60 in 4 sec.), and the expensive supercars like the AC Propulsion T-Zero, the Venturi Fetish, and the Tesla Motors Roadster (all of which will beat a Dodge Viper in the 1/4 mile).
This performance info is given especially for the muscle-car fans, who seem to be populating this site (they must not realize that this is the GREEN - not MEAN - Car Congress), because they won't consider any car that's not fast. They aren't interested in anything except raw performance and lots of showy options like 17" rims and fancy lights. They could care less about efficiency and its environmental benefits, unless, of course, the inefficiencies start to make a significant dent in their pocketbook. I leave the research on all these cars as an education project for the reader.
Posted by: Sven | Jun 3, 2007 6:23:12 AM
Many of us predicted the Accord Hybrid would fail the second it came out. So, no surprise here. On the other hand, the Camry Hybrid is successful since Toyota chose the better route-- mpg over performance with a 4 cyliner.
The marketing is really pretty simple and born out by sales figures. People who buy hybrid want mpg, not extra performance that sacrifices mpg. If they can have both fine, which might occur with the next gen Prius, at least one of the three models proposed.
Diesel may or may not be a successful entrant in the future U.S. market. But for now, the full hybrid is king and Toyota is setting new sales records. Even with the new EPA mileage figures, the Prius rules. With the next gen, the Prius will rule even better.
Posted by: tom | Jun 3, 2007 7:35:34 AM
The point I am trying to make is that it did not have to be a failure, and they could have addressed this with the second generation Accord Hybrid.
How did the 700lb lighter Civic get a more powerful IMA than the Accord?
Does Honda expect people to pay low 30's for a car with those ugly 16" rims (I understand they were for low rolling resistance tires, but what does that add, a half mpg?)
If Toyota had stopped with the first-generation Prius, where do you think they would be now?
No one said they had to continue to use the V6 in the next-generation hybrid. The new 4-cylinder VTEC is rumored to be 180HP+. With a more powerful IMA, it could have seriously challenged the Camry and Altima hybrids....
Posted by: Angelo | Jun 3, 2007 8:10:56 AM
This is expected.
1st - Toyota took 60 % of Accord's market with Camry-H
2nd - Nissan took 20 % of Accord's market with Altima-H.
So only 20 % of Accord's market remains.
There are many differences between Civic and Accord Hybrids.
Civic has V4 engine, CVT transmission, Cylinder shutdown during slowdown and Accord has V6 engine, 5-Speed trans and no Cylinder deactivation.
Honda wanted to sell this as a performance vehicle and those who wanted performance simply hated hybrids and so the product is in trouble.
Nothing is lost even now, Honda can put their IMA system in V4 Accord. As for Higlander and Rx400 hybrids selling more, they are crossovers which are the hottest segment.
Best thing is for Honda to put IMA in CR-V which is another fast growing product. CR-V is the #1 selling in SUV segment.
Posted by: Max Reid | Jun 3, 2007 8:19:41 AM
Welcome to the real world , when you have your cities choked with diesel pollution , like we have here in europe, that twenty cents a gallon difference is going to pale into insignificance! Diesel is a killer , no matter how clean the car companies tell you it is !
Before those who welcome diesels get too excited, they should stand near the exhaust pipe of any diesel in existence and try to breathe....
Spare us the "diesels are dirty" mantra. Utter nonsense.
If anything, a move to diesel from gasoline in the U.S. would IMPROVE air quality.
Posted by: Carl | Jun 3, 2007 9:48:47 AM
Spare us the "diesels are dirty" mantra. Utter nonsense.
Please list all MY07 light-duty diesels for sale in the United States (ie, meeting current emission standards.
If anything, a move to diesel from gasoline in the U.S. would IMPROVE air quality.
Speaking of utter nonsense...
Posted by: hominy | Jun 3, 2007 10:16:38 AM
The government should not support ethanol, it can die on its own. Those ethanol-oriented vehicles need to be subjected to the same, gas-guzzler taxes as regular gas cars. Any failure for these vehicles to function up to requirements including emissions-testing, needs to not be tolerated.
Posted by: Brent Emery Pieczynski | Jun 3, 2007 10:54:37 AM
Hey retard, stand next to your Prius's exhuast you imbisile.
Prius pollutes big time, goog thing for me the enviroweenies are willing to pay a premium to do it.
You could ride a bike and be 100 clean, this I drive a Prius snobery is actually comical to me. These are people who wish they were rich snobs, wait they can still be Prius snobs for $22,000. LOFL
Posted by: Richard | Jun 3, 2007 11:03:40 AM
Diesel lovers read this please:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/4/S1/1037
Hopefully future emmission laws will force car industry to improve their productes. It´s about our children!
Btw,
1. Hertz Europe (rent a car srvice) is offering Prius now. They figured out that people who rent a Prius, drive more economical with a Hybrid than with a Diesel in the same size as the Prius.
2. Cab / taxi companies in Berlin which are operateing Prius fleets have reported 300.000 to 500.000 km per car now. They say, that using Hybrid instead of a Diesel taxi, is 15% cheaper over all. That means more profit for them. And some % better air quality in town. That´s really good. Every cab should be Hybrid instead of being Diesel.
(Remember, the German Diesel-promoting government made Diesel oil cheaper than patrol, so it´s quite a result for the Prius, isn´t it?)
Hopefully, only few Diesel Accords will be sold around the world. Honda should use a modern turbocharged patrol instead. Downzising!
Posted by: Michel | Jun 3, 2007 11:41:29 AM
you imbisile [sic]
Too funny.
Posted by: hominy | Jun 3, 2007 11:44:57 AM
"Disagreement is fine, insults, abuse or wild diversions are not. Comments not meeting those standards will be deleted"
Richard, take notice...and learn how to spell 'imbecile' (the obvious comment I will leave out because the the above warning :)
Posted by: sjc | Jun 3, 2007 12:34:02 PM
Gasser lovers, please take a look at slide #7 of this:
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/nfti/pdfs/workshop_obj_lawson.pdf
Or consider these:
"…Filters are considered effective enough such that tailpipe emissions are less than ambient levels in laboratory…"
Source: Tim Johnson (Corning), Symposium on Particulate Matter, August 12-13, 2003
"…The cancer risk index is higher for gasoline vehicles than for diesel vehicles…."
Source: John Fairbanks (DOE), Symposium on Particulate Matter, August 12-13, 2003 (emphasis added)
"…Trap-equipped diesels emit a lower particle number than even gasoline vehicles…."
Source: Axel Friedrich, Umweltbundesamt, Symposium on Particulate Matter, August 12-13, 2003
Please list all MY07 light-duty diesels for sale in the United States (ie, meeting current emission standards.
Just off the top of my head:
2007 VW Touareg TDI
2007 E320 Bluetec
2007 ML320 CDI
2007 R320 CDI
In my opinion, meeting arbitrary emission standards concocted around the technical capabilities of gasoline engines has little to do with the actual environmental impact of a vehicle. For example, why has the U.S. CO emission standard remained essentially unchanged since 1981?
Speaking of utter nonsense...
Based on what?
ANY combustion source produces products of incomplete combustion. EVs and BEVs just move the pollution source (power plant) to another location. And if you think gasoline engine don't produce products of incomplete combustion, you need to think again.
Bring on the Honda Accord diesel!
Posted by: Carl | Jun 3, 2007 12:58:39 PM
I believe the new Accord will completely overshadow the old Hybrid in environmental performance and will deliver great driving performance as well.
In the EU market, Honda has been developing some amazing clean and quiet diesels which Americans know nothing about. The 2.2 CDTi has been powering the Euro-accord (basically an Acura TSX) for 3 years now.
I look forward to Honda's foray into diesels for the US.
Posted by: Lance Funston | Jun 3, 2007 1:49:54 PM
Diesel Accord is a step backward for Honda. Diesel will improve mpg but 25% the most, while paying higher price for the engine and emission control equipment, and perhaps noiser and rougher idling. PHEV option will be out of the question for this Diesel car. If PHEV will be in vogue in the near future, this will deny Honda another golden opportunity to be at the forefront of Green Automotive, while Toyota and GM will charge ahead.
Making a full-hybrid Accord is not hard to do, as I've outline in my previous posting. Just lift the 1.6-1.8 liter engine from a regular Civic and connect it to the CVT unit from the Civic Hybrid to power the front axle, while adding an electric motor to drive either the front or the rear axle, and add a starter/generator to the engine to help transfer power from the engine to the motor during hard acceleration in order to reduce the torque load on the CVT during hard acceleration...and bingo, full hybrid Accord with mpg exceeding that of the Camry Hybrid, while leaving the future PHEV option wide open. It may be slightly more expensive than the traditional Honda's IMA scheme, but this full-hybrid performance and economy will still be affordable to Accord buyers, while gaining much more respect for Honda for being at the Green forefront.
Posted by: Roger Pham | Jun 3, 2007 6:11:12 PM
As we wish for greener cars and ideal technology we should remember that Honda management is working to prosper. That is not evil. In fact it is necessary.
This decision really wasn't hybrid v. diesel. It is Honda's reaction to the dismal sales and prospects for a specific car, the hybrid Accord.
No doubt Honda could have revised the car and increased sales. But how much? At minimum they would need to match the Camry Hybrid. Other makers are also moving hybrids to the US market so they wouldn't be contending with just Toyota.
But when Honda goes for a diesel Accord they go with a strength. Their recent diesel engines have been well reviewed and received. They are behind w/hybrids but not with diesels.
Later, in model year 2010 or 2011, they can be right back with a great and well tested Accord Hybrid.
So I think this was a simple marketing decision - get our diesels started and make very sure we do an Accord Hybrid right next time. It says nothing about hybrid as a technology.
Posted by: K | Jun 3, 2007 8:55:16 PM
Carl, thanks for your information.
But never results from tests show, that even particulate traps can not reduce pariculate matter that is harmful for the human body.
And your qouted statements are in regard to the weight of particulate matter and not the volume or amount.
And by Umweltbundesamt, Diesel cars are regarded as a step backward in improving air quality in our towns.
A point is that Diesel engine in cars have boosted the sell of SUVs in Europe. Average C02 output of a Diesel car sold in Germany is now higher than those of a patrol car (Kraftfahrtbundesamt).
The European standard for emission control in cars still keeps the Diesel dirty. It´s a fact, unfortunately. Rising NOx and ground ozon levels beside particulate matters a problem in European towns.
And you are right, patrol engine driven cars are a problem too (e.g. Platinium in cat.).
A solution would be a urban concept without a need for cars.
Posted by: Michel | Jun 4, 2007 1:21:21 AM
the diesel accord helps them get the diesel engine some life blood here. It's way more effiecient than gas, preferred by many over hybrid and has the biodiesel option.
Posted by: Richard | Jun 4, 2007 4:16:43 AM
Michel, I certainly agree that the best urban concept is one without the need for cars. However, that appears unlikely in the foreseeable future.
As far as particle numbers are concerned, there have been studies that show that particle numbers from modern gasoline vehicles are as high or higher than UNCONTROLLED diesel trucks under common driving conditions:
"Normal emitting SI engines under high speed and load
conditions may emit number emissions that equal or exceed Diesel levels"
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/829821-SQYKH6/native/829821.pdf
If I recall correctly, you posted a link recently indicating that particulate filters (DPF) were being developed that would filter out the very smallest particles (nanoparticles). I don't understand much German, but that was my understanding of that article you referenced.
As far as NOx is concerned, it is generally true that diesels tend to have higher emissions of NOx (which is being addressed with aftertreatment technology like NAC and urea-SCR). However, all major urban areas studied thus far in the U.S. have been shown to be VOC-limited, meaning that reducing NOx will have essentially no effect on urban ozone levels and may actually increase them (only reducing VOC/HC and/or CO will reduce ambient ozone levels under these conditions). Gasoline is an extremely volatile substance and raw gasoline vapors is exactly what we DON'T need in these VOC-limited urban areas. Low-emission diesels would be much better for urban smog mitigation. That's why I said that moving to diesels in lieu of gasoline vehicles would actually improve air quality, at least in urban areas where most of the problems with smog occur.
By the way, gasoline vapors oxidize in the atmosphere to formaldehyde (as a stable intermediate) and secondary organic aerosols (SOA). These SOA are mostly formed in the nucleation mode, meaning that they're primarily nanoparticles. Shouldn't we be concerned about this indirectly emitted PM also?
Posted by: Carl | Jun 4, 2007 5:26:39 AM
Diesel propaganda never ends. Out comes the "weekend effect" foolishness. "Let's pollute more to clean our air! That's the ticket!"
Posted by: bert | Jun 4, 2007 8:22:17 AM
"Why don't you compare a Golf with a Corvette while you're at it."
Because that would be uninformative. Both cars I compared are the same sedan. The difference between the Accord Hybrid and the cheapest accord 4 cyl. is price, trim (i.e. leather upholstery, CD changer, etc), and the drive train. If you are interested in saving money, the Accord special is the way to go. If you want the same trim as the Hybrid you can buy the EX-L 4 cyl. which is $6K more than the special, and $6K less than the hybrid. The mileage difference between the 4 and the Hybrid will not make up for the price difference.
Posted by: Robert Schwartz | Jun 4, 2007 2:07:23 PM
Because that would be uninformative.
No, it would be equally uninformative.
Both cars I compared are the same sedan.
The body shape is the same. That's about it.
The difference between the Accord Hybrid and the cheapest accord 4 cyl. is price, trim (i.e. leather upholstery, CD changer, etc), and the drive train.
Yeah, "just" the drivetrain, trim, suspension, wheels, and the huger difference in performance and capabilities. I mean, a Toyota Corolla S and Lotus Elise are the same car, too. Same engine base. So are a 4 cylinder Mustang back in the day and a Mustabg Cobra GT. Just a "minor" trim and drivetrain difference. Same thing, right? Apples and apples.
If you are interested in saving money, the Accord special is the way to go. If you want the same trim as the Hybrid you can buy the EX-L 4 cyl. which is $6K more than the special, and $6K less than the hybrid.
Isn't that amazing? High selling vehicles have a wide variety of trims and prices. A 6-banger Dodge Magnum from a rental company and the SRT8 are just minor trim and drivetrain differences. Clearly we should all get the 6-banger rent-a-car tossaways.
Not everything boils down to saving money. It's about the balance of things one wants. Maybe some people would like a little umph with their fuel economy. Not every planetsaver has to be a submissive, fun-free, pale-faced sourpuss.
Yeah, and how does one justify any automotive expense between vastly different trim and drivetrain option?
Compare equal trim levels and equal powertrains, then its apples to apples. Otherwise, you're just trying to skew the model and basically lie your way to your bias.
Posted by: aba | Jun 4, 2007 4:24:23 PM
I think this is a smart move on Honda's part. Their Accord hybrid has a reputation as not making good enough mileage, and was the car used as an example in many articles complaining that hybrids are not worth the expense. It would be a real marketing challenge to explain that their new hybrid is different than their old hybrid.
Toyota is dominating the hybrid segment, and rather than a frontal assault with another hybrid Accord, they're making a flanking move with the diesel. The diesel model is a clear difference from Toyota as well as their old Accord hybrid.
Posted by: RMichael | Jun 4, 2007 6:23:26 PM
Honda's assist hybrid drive train does have its advantages: its more efficient on the highway then the Toyota's Synergy Drive and it can drive even if the batteries are dead.
Posted by: Ben | Jun 4, 2007 7:22:20 PM
You are all welcome to visit the VW TDi forums, especially the "1000 mile club" section.
That's over 60 mpg on the highway (1.9L TDi engine)
I don't see anything near that with any 4 passenger gasoline-electric hybrid - personally, I'd like to see a diesel-electric hybrid.
Posted by: Bill | Jun 4, 2007 7:29:25 PM
That's over 60 mpg on the highway (1.9L TDi engine) I don't see anything near that with any 4 passenger gasoline-electric hybrid
Hybrid hypermilers can beat that easily.
Posted by: bob | Jun 4, 2007 8:33:11 PM
Y'all need to unwind the rubber band a little bit.
Diesel fuel can be made much more effectively from renewables than can gas substitutes. That's why Diesel invented them in the first place: to deprive oil companies of their hold on consumers. The algae referenced above can be grown in your local wastewater treatment plant and then processed into biodiesel. It's sulfur-free and the larger particulates (PM10) are less dangerous than the particulates (PM1) from gas, which I think you are going to start finding to be more expensive for a variety of reasons (China, India, carbon tax, ethanol vs. food, etc.). Loud engines and rough idle are references to your daddy's diesel: at speed, where you are usually driving, the higher torque TDs turn slower and are much quieter, and at rest, the ICE should be OFF in a diesel-electric.
You diesel enthusiasts should be looking forward to re-capturing the energy lost as heat in your brakes. Yes, the drive trains are more complex, but so is your electronically controlled turbodiesel more complex -- and more efficient and reliable -- than a diesel was a generation ago.
Why so much bile? Geez, we're talking about vehicles that could get in the 70+ mpg range with an engine smaller than 2 l, but yet still cranking out nearly 200 ft-lbs (~270 Nm?).
Posted by: Eric H | Jun 4, 2007 9:21:44 PM
"Hybrid hypermilers can beat that easily."
Just keep in mind that those are hybrid *gasoline* electric vehicles. Hybrids are not limited to gas engines... they can apply to diesels too! I think diesel is a step forward, because even without a hybrid system, its fuel economy approaches current day hybrid gas electrics. Imagine making one of these clean diesels into a hybrid diesel electric and just think of the fuel economy it'd have.
Another thing is diesel and biofuel go hand in hand, because of the nature of a diesel engine.
These will be great cars, and they will lead to even better things.
Posted by: kris | Jun 4, 2007 10:56:02 PM
I would love this to be the start of the end for oil but its not likely. Don't jump the gun even the people that live there are not worried:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L04279107.htm
then again they could be doomed.
Posted by: Ben | Jun 4, 2007 11:27:05 PM
Out comes the "weekend effect" foolishness.
The “weekend effect” has been documented for years if not decades, especially in California. Hardly “foolishness”.
”Let's pollute more to clean our air! That's the ticket!”
Then what’s your explanation for it? Just because something is counterintuitive doesn’t negate the phenomenon.
Posted by: Carl | Jun 5, 2007 1:35:22 AM
"Let's pollute more to clean the air. Let's pollute more to clean the air! Must. Pollute More! Diesel!"
Posted by: bert | Jun 5, 2007 6:27:11 AM
I'm a little disappointed in Honda. To differentiate themselves from Toyota, they are bringing out a clean diesel? But how does that differentiate them from all the European companies that build really nice diesels? I think if they really wanted to differentiate themselves, they should have bitten the bullet and came out with an HCCI or an HCCI/hybrid. They have been fooling around with HCCI in one form or another for some time. Redesigned (slightly larger) HCCI insight with CVT, rear seat and Li Ion batteries would have been quite a differentiator.
Posted by: Bob Bastard | Jun 5, 2007 7:03:07 AM
Must. Pollute More! Diesel!
Actually, It's "Must. Pollute Less! Diesel!"
http://www.greendieseltechnology.com/News.asp?ID=418&link=
Posted by: Carl | Jun 5, 2007 9:41:10 AM
There is no stock 4 passenger gasoline-electric hybrid getting 60mpg at highway speed.
(IIRC, maximum speed battery-only is around 40mph on the Prius)
Not to mention some hypermiler practices, like drafting are dangerous, if not illegal.
Looking forward to driving this soon in the U.S.:
http://www.stevelarkins.freeuk.com/honda_civic_review.htm
Bet the Chevy Volt will offer diesel for their onboard generator.
>Hybrid hypermilers can beat that easily.
Posted by: Bill | Jun 5, 2007 10:36:22 AM
Bob B: This thread is obviously about done. Don't be too disappointed about this decision.
Honda diesels will compete with some nice EU diesels. But in the US Honda begins almost even; there simply aren't that many diesels here yet. If Honda waited a year or so they would be starting late in the US.
As to HCCI or HCCI/hybrid or improving the present Accord Hybrid. There is such a thing as reality. If vehicles aren't ready Honda can't make or sell them. I can't know, but I strongly suspect, that Honda is offering the best they have at a given time.
Posted by: K | Jun 5, 2007 10:41:56 AM
Actually, It's "Must. Pollute Less! Diesel!"
That Kool Aid sure is tasty, huh.
Posted by: bert | Jun 5, 2007 11:00:43 AM
That Kool Aid sure is tasty, huh.
That’s really insightful. You’re representing the diesel bashers very well (see, I can be sarcastic too). You haven’t produced a shred of evidence to support your position. Just your outdated PERCEPTION of diesel engine technology.
Here are more FACTS on the subject:
“…Much lower emissions of VOC, CO, and NOx on weekends, with larger NOx reductions than VOC and CO reductions
— Up to 80% fewer trucks and buses and ~15% less light-duty traffic on roads in urban areas on weekends…
…In urban areas, NOx reductions increase ozone production; VOC (and CO) reductions decrease ozone production. For ozone production, these emission reductions offset each other….”
Weekday and Weekend Air Pollutant Levels in Ozone Problem Areas in the United States, Dr. Douglas R. Lawson, et al, NREL
“...ROG [VOC] reductions (with constant NOx) always lead to a slowing of the ozone production process and lower peak ozone concentrations. NOx reductions (with constant ROG) can lead to a speeding up of the ozone process, and can increase or decrease peak ozone values depending on the ROG-to-NOx ratio.
Thus, whereas ROG control is never detrimental, NOx control can be detrimental, particularly in the central cores of urban areas...."
Air Pollution Control, A Design Approach; Cooper, D. C.; Alley, F. C.; Third Edition, page 600
"...reducing NOx emissions causes the “ozone production efficiency” (OPE) of NOx to increase, offsetting the decrease in NOx emissions...
...OPE lower with higher NOx emissions..."
Ozone Formation - Is All NOx Created Equal? Dr. James F. Meagher, NOAA
“...Source of Most HC Emissions • Mobile sources • Gasoline-powered vehicles; only a small amount from Diesels…"
http://www.raqc.org/ozone/Workshop/October%202,%202002/Doug%20Lawson.PDF (slide 15)
"…The diesel engine is one of the most promising technologies available today to reduce the environmental footprint of the transportation sector….”
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/technology/deerpresentation.pdf (page 3)
“…THC emissions for diesel vehicles are very low in total mass in comparison with gasoline vehicles… (page 72)
…Diesel vehicles emit lower levels of NMHC in the exhaust compared with gasoline vehicles…. (page 125)
…gasoline vehicles emit the large majority of CO…” (page 142)
Hazard Assessment Document (HAD) for Diesel Engine Exhaust, USEPA (page 142)
Still waiting for something…anything…suggesting NOx is a “pollutant” but HC and CO aren’t.
Posted by: Carl | Jun 5, 2007 12:12:26 PM
That’s really insightful.
Thank you. It's an appropriate response to claiming that the solution to air pollution is to make more of it.
You’re representing the diesel bashers very well
Oh, I'm a "basher"? No, I'm a clean air lover. See the title of the blog? The word "green"? I like my lungs, thank you, and have plenty of experience around diesels.
The weekend effect is highly controversial and there is no consensus on the matter. You can post horsehockey from your little fanboy site all you want.
Still waiting for something…anything…suggesting NOx is a “pollutant” but HC and CO aren’t.
LOL - NOx isn't a pollutant? I guess the smog over the Grand Canyon is a figment of everyone's imagination.
Posted by: bert | Jun 5, 2007 12:54:49 PM
"The cause(s) of the ozone weekend effect are not yet clear. For example, the
available data do not yet show whether ozone measured on weekends is higher
because more ozone is created or because less ozone is destroyed. It is important to know the respective contributions of these and other atmospheric processes if we
want to understand the overall weekend effect and its implications."
http://www.arb.ca.gov/aqd/weekendeffect/arb-final/wee_tsd_ch7_1.pdf
Posted by: bert | Jun 5, 2007 12:57:40 PM
You are the definition of a basher.
Now shut the f... up.
Posted by: carl | Jun 5, 2007 4:34:06 PM
I'd like to comment on the end of the Accord Hybrid, and Honda's moves in the hybrid market. They decided to develop the hybrid version of the Accord not primarily as a way to achieve higher fuel economy, but as a way to get faster 0-60 times for a higher price. Their experience with sales has proven that decision to be an unwise one, in the face of rising fuel costs, a growing public awareness of environmental concerns and the general trend of sports cars to grow up into cushy luxury cars as their drivers' butts and wallets get fatter.
The end of the Insight was a similar failure, not of engineering knowhow, but of marketing. If they had redesigned it after the first 3-5 years and improved it, then advertised the heck out of it when gasoline hit 3 bucks per, they'd be selling them like hotcakes right now. I can only remember one television ad for the Insight, and that was in the year 2000.
It almost seems like Honda's seen Toyota's success in the hybrid market, got their feelings hurt and decided to take their ball and go home with their head hanging low, rather than use the great technology they have, improve it a bit and come up with a marketing strategy that works to reestablish their position as a leader in hybrid vehicles.
Introducing a diesel isn't a bad move, but a diesel-electric hybrid would have been the really bold move and one that they could have used to beat the Volt at its game. Maybe next year?
I love my '01 Insight, but when I'm ready to retire it in ~2011, Honda won't be the only place I'll shop.
Posted by: InsightFan | Jun 5, 2007 4:43:03 PM
Nothing is lost.
Honda can tuck the IMA system used in Civic Hybrid into the Civic LX model (which costs around 15K) and sell the vehicle for around 18K and it will sell like hotcakes, challenging the dominance of Prius.
Or, they can remove the extras like Monitor, Alloy-wheels, etc from the Civic Hybrid and sell it for around 20K and still it will sell well.
Posted by: Max Reid | Jun 5, 2007 5:21:54 PM
Honda will move diesel technology forward just as they did with four cylinder gas engines,we may be surprised at what they will do in the next 5 years,they already invented a non urea catalyst.this will lead other companies to improve diesels and this can only be good for the economy and the environment.Let's try to remember the oil companies(especially Exxon/Mobil)are the enemies not hybrid enthusiasts.Diesel is just another option for energy conscious consumers and more options is better.As for marketing,Honda will be seen as the first to bring clean diesel to America.Honda is always trying to simplify and diesel can be much simpler than hybrid.This can only be a good move for Honda and America.
Posted by: middleoroad | Jun 6, 2007 5:34:01 AM
Given that Honda has produced a revolutionary catalyst that reduces diesel emissions to meet EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 specs, it is smart for Honda to drop the expensive-to-build Accord Hybrid and build the next-generation Accord with what amounts to a modernized version of the i-CTDi engine, probably with a higher-pressure common-rail direct fuel injection system and slightly larger displacement for more overall power without sacrificing the fuel economy of the current i-CTDi engine. I expect this new engine not only to find its way into the Accord sedan but mostly sell to the CR-V/Element market.
Posted by: Raymond | Jun 6, 2007 9:13:06 AM
I have driven an Accord diesel wagon with a 5 speed, and it is sweet... much better than a hybrid by far. I got to drive it in Ottawa at Transport Canada's Advanced Technology Vehicle Program. (They own a bunch of cool cars, mostly from Europe.)
Posted by: Keith | Jun 13, 2007 5:11:26 PM
>>Why don't you compare a Golf with a Corvette while you're at it.<<
I'll take the Golf. Corvettes are for guys who are trying to prove something.
Posted by: abba | Sep 8, 2007 7:12:40 PM
Watch the latest videos on YouTube.comPosted by: Jag | Feb 25, 2008 5:03:10 PM
