Welcome to the real world , when you have your cities choked with diesel pollution , like we have here in europe, that twenty cents a gallon difference is going to pale into insignificance! Diesel is a killer , no matter how clean the car companies tell you it is !

Before those who welcome diesels get too excited, they should stand near the exhaust pipe of any diesel in existence and try to breathe....

Spare us the "diesels are dirty" mantra. Utter nonsense.

If anything, a move to diesel from gasoline in the U.S. would IMPROVE air quality.

Spare us the "diesels are dirty" mantra. Utter nonsense.

Please list all MY07 light-duty diesels for sale in the United States (ie, meeting current emission standards.

If anything, a move to diesel from gasoline in the U.S. would IMPROVE air quality.

Speaking of utter nonsense...

The government should not support ethanol, it can die on its own. Those ethanol-oriented vehicles need to be subjected to the same, gas-guzzler taxes as regular gas cars. Any failure for these vehicles to function up to requirements including emissions-testing, needs to not be tolerated.

Hey retard, stand next to your Prius's exhuast you imbisile.
Prius pollutes big time, goog thing for me the enviroweenies are willing to pay a premium to do it.

You could ride a bike and be 100 clean, this I drive a Prius snobery is actually comical to me. These are people who wish they were rich snobs, wait they can still be Prius snobs for $22,000. LOFL

Diesel lovers read this please:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/4/S1/1037

Hopefully future emmission laws will force car industry to improve their productes. It´s about our children!

Btw,
1. Hertz Europe (rent a car srvice) is offering Prius now. They figured out that people who rent a Prius, drive more economical with a Hybrid than with a Diesel in the same size as the Prius.

2. Cab / taxi companies in Berlin which are operateing Prius fleets have reported 300.000 to 500.000 km per car now. They say, that using Hybrid instead of a Diesel taxi, is 15% cheaper over all. That means more profit for them. And some % better air quality in town. That´s really good. Every cab should be Hybrid instead of being Diesel.

(Remember, the German Diesel-promoting government made Diesel oil cheaper than patrol, so it´s quite a result for the Prius, isn´t it?)

Hopefully, only few Diesel Accords will be sold around the world. Honda should use a modern turbocharged patrol instead. Downzising!

you imbisile [sic]

Too funny.

"Disagreement is fine, insults, abuse or wild diversions are not. Comments not meeting those standards will be deleted"

Richard, take notice...and learn how to spell 'imbecile' (the obvious comment I will leave out because the the above warning :)

Gasser lovers, please take a look at slide #7 of this:

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/nfti/pdfs/workshop_obj_lawson.pdf

Or consider these:

"…Filters are considered effective enough such that tailpipe emissions are less than ambient levels in laboratory…"

Source: Tim Johnson (Corning), Symposium on Particulate Matter, August 12-13, 2003

"…The cancer risk index is higher for gasoline vehicles than for diesel vehicles…."

Source: John Fairbanks (DOE), Symposium on Particulate Matter, August 12-13, 2003 (emphasis added)

"…Trap-equipped diesels emit a lower particle number than even gasoline vehicles…."

Source: Axel Friedrich, Umweltbundesamt, Symposium on Particulate Matter, August 12-13, 2003

Please list all MY07 light-duty diesels for sale in the United States (ie, meeting current emission standards.

Just off the top of my head:

2007 VW Touareg TDI
2007 E320 Bluetec
2007 ML320 CDI
2007 R320 CDI

In my opinion, meeting arbitrary emission standards concocted around the technical capabilities of gasoline engines has little to do with the actual environmental impact of a vehicle. For example, why has the U.S. CO emission standard remained essentially unchanged since 1981?

Speaking of utter nonsense...

Based on what?

ANY combustion source produces products of incomplete combustion. EVs and BEVs just move the pollution source (power plant) to another location. And if you think gasoline engine don't produce products of incomplete combustion, you need to think again.

Bring on the Honda Accord diesel!

I believe the new Accord will completely overshadow the old Hybrid in environmental performance and will deliver great driving performance as well.

In the EU market, Honda has been developing some amazing clean and quiet diesels which Americans know nothing about. The 2.2 CDTi has been powering the Euro-accord (basically an Acura TSX) for 3 years now.

I look forward to Honda's foray into diesels for the US.

Diesel Accord is a step backward for Honda. Diesel will improve mpg but 25% the most, while paying higher price for the engine and emission control equipment, and perhaps noiser and rougher idling. PHEV option will be out of the question for this Diesel car. If PHEV will be in vogue in the near future, this will deny Honda another golden opportunity to be at the forefront of Green Automotive, while Toyota and GM will charge ahead.

Making a full-hybrid Accord is not hard to do, as I've outline in my previous posting. Just lift the 1.6-1.8 liter engine from a regular Civic and connect it to the CVT unit from the Civic Hybrid to power the front axle, while adding an electric motor to drive either the front or the rear axle, and add a starter/generator to the engine to help transfer power from the engine to the motor during hard acceleration in order to reduce the torque load on the CVT during hard acceleration...and bingo, full hybrid Accord with mpg exceeding that of the Camry Hybrid, while leaving the future PHEV option wide open. It may be slightly more expensive than the traditional Honda's IMA scheme, but this full-hybrid performance and economy will still be affordable to Accord buyers, while gaining much more respect for Honda for being at the Green forefront.

As we wish for greener cars and ideal technology we should remember that Honda management is working to prosper. That is not evil. In fact it is necessary.

This decision really wasn't hybrid v. diesel. It is Honda's reaction to the dismal sales and prospects for a specific car, the hybrid Accord.

No doubt Honda could have revised the car and increased sales. But how much? At minimum they would need to match the Camry Hybrid. Other makers are also moving hybrids to the US market so they wouldn't be contending with just Toyota.

But when Honda goes for a diesel Accord they go with a strength. Their recent diesel engines have been well reviewed and received. They are behind w/hybrids but not with diesels.

Later, in model year 2010 or 2011, they can be right back with a great and well tested Accord Hybrid.

So I think this was a simple marketing decision - get our diesels started and make very sure we do an Accord Hybrid right next time. It says nothing about hybrid as a technology.

Carl, thanks for your information.
But never results from tests show, that even particulate traps can not reduce pariculate matter that is harmful for the human body.

And your qouted statements are in regard to the weight of particulate matter and not the volume or amount.

And by Umweltbundesamt, Diesel cars are regarded as a step backward in improving air quality in our towns.

A point is that Diesel engine in cars have boosted the sell of SUVs in Europe. Average C02 output of a Diesel car sold in Germany is now higher than those of a patrol car (Kraftfahrtbundesamt).

The European standard for emission control in cars still keeps the Diesel dirty. It´s a fact, unfortunately. Rising NOx and ground ozon levels beside particulate matters a problem in European towns.

And you are right, patrol engine driven cars are a problem too (e.g. Platinium in cat.).

A solution would be a urban concept without a need for cars.

the diesel accord helps them get the diesel engine some life blood here. It's way more effiecient than gas, preferred by many over hybrid and has the biodiesel option.

Michel, I certainly agree that the best urban concept is one without the need for cars. However, that appears unlikely in the foreseeable future.

As far as particle numbers are concerned, there have been studies that show that particle numbers from modern gasoline vehicles are as high or higher than UNCONTROLLED diesel trucks under common driving conditions:

"Normal emitting SI engines under high speed and load
conditions may emit number emissions that equal or exceed Diesel levels"

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/829821-SQYKH6/native/829821.pdf

If I recall correctly, you posted a link recently indicating that particulate filters (DPF) were being developed that would filter out the very smallest particles (nanoparticles). I don't understand much German, but that was my understanding of that article you referenced.

As far as NOx is concerned, it is generally true that diesels tend to have higher emissions of NOx (which is being addressed with aftertreatment technology like NAC and urea-SCR). However, all major urban areas studied thus far in the U.S. have been shown to be VOC-limited, meaning that reducing NOx will have essentially no effect on urban ozone levels and may actually increase them (only reducing VOC/HC and/or CO will reduce ambient ozone levels under these conditions). Gasoline is an extremely volatile substance and raw gasoline vapors is exactly what we DON'T need in these VOC-limited urban areas. Low-emission diesels would be much better for urban smog mitigation. That's why I said that moving to diesels in lieu of gasoline vehicles would actually improve air quality, at least in urban areas where most of the problems with smog occur.

By the way, gasoline vapors oxidize in the atmosphere to formaldehyde (as a stable intermediate) and secondary organic aerosols (SOA). These SOA are mostly formed in the nucleation mode, meaning that they're primarily nanoparticles. Shouldn't we be concerned about this indirectly emitted PM also?

Diesel propaganda never ends. Out comes the "weekend effect" foolishness. "Let's pollute more to clean our air! That's the ticket!"

"Why don't you compare a Golf with a Corvette while you're at it."

Because that would be uninformative. Both cars I compared are the same sedan. The difference between the Accord Hybrid and the cheapest accord 4 cyl. is price, trim (i.e. leather upholstery, CD changer, etc), and the drive train. If you are interested in saving money, the Accord special is the way to go. If you want the same trim as the Hybrid you can buy the EX-L 4 cyl. which is $6K more than the special, and $6K less than the hybrid. The mileage difference between the 4 and the Hybrid will not make up for the price difference.

Because that would be uninformative.

No, it would be equally uninformative.

Both cars I compared are the same sedan.

The body shape is the same. That's about it.

The difference between the Accord Hybrid and the cheapest accord 4 cyl. is price, trim (i.e. leather upholstery, CD changer, etc), and the drive train.

Yeah, "just" the drivetrain, trim, suspension, wheels, and the huger difference in performance and capabilities. I mean, a Toyota Corolla S and Lotus Elise are the same car, too. Same engine base. So are a 4 cylinder Mustang back in the day and a Mustabg Cobra GT. Just a "minor" trim and drivetrain difference. Same thing, right? Apples and apples.

If you are interested in saving money, the Accord special is the way to go. If you want the same trim as the Hybrid you can buy the EX-L 4 cyl. which is $6K more than the special, and $6K less than the hybrid.

Isn't that amazing? High selling vehicles have a wide variety of trims and prices. A 6-banger Dodge Magnum from a rental company and the SRT8 are just minor trim and drivetrain differences. Clearly we should all get the 6-banger rent-a-car tossaways.

Not everything boils down to saving money. It's about the balance of things one wants. Maybe some people would like a little umph with their fuel economy. Not every planetsaver has to be a submissive, fun-free, pale-faced sourpuss.

Yeah, and how does one justify any automotive expense between vastly different trim and drivetrain option?

Compare equal trim levels and equal powertrains, then its apples to apples. Otherwise, you're just trying to skew the model and basically lie your way to your bias.

I think this is a smart move on Honda's part. Their Accord hybrid has a reputation as not making good enough mileage, and was the car used as an example in many articles complaining that hybrids are not worth the expense. It would be a real marketing challenge to explain that their new hybrid is different than their old hybrid.

Toyota is dominating the hybrid segment, and rather than a frontal assault with another hybrid Accord, they're making a flanking move with the diesel. The diesel model is a clear difference from Toyota as well as their old Accord hybrid.

Honda's assist hybrid drive train does have its advantages: its more efficient on the highway then the Toyota's Synergy Drive and it can drive even if the batteries are dead.

You are all welcome to visit the VW TDi forums, especially the "1000 mile club" section.

That's over 60 mpg on the highway (1.9L TDi engine)

I don't see anything near that with any 4 passenger gasoline-electric hybrid - personally, I'd like to see a diesel-electric hybrid.

That's over 60 mpg on the highway (1.9L TDi engine) I don't see anything near that with any 4 passenger gasoline-electric hybrid

Hybrid hypermilers can beat that easily.

Y'all need to unwind the rubber band a little bit.

Diesel fuel can be made much more effectively from renewables than can gas substitutes. That's why Diesel invented them in the first place: to deprive oil companies of their hold on consumers. The algae referenced above can be grown in your local wastewater treatment plant and then processed into biodiesel. It's sulfur-free and the larger particulates (PM10) are less dangerous than the particulates (PM1) from gas, which I think you are going to start finding to be more expensive for a variety of reasons (China, India, carbon tax, ethanol vs. food, etc.). Loud engines and rough idle are references to your daddy's diesel: at speed, where you are usually driving, the higher torque TDs turn slower and are much quieter, and at rest, the ICE should be OFF in a diesel-electric.

You diesel enthusiasts should be looking forward to re-capturing the energy lost as heat in your brakes. Yes, the drive trains are more complex, but so is your electronically controlled turbodiesel more complex -- and more efficient and reliable -- than a diesel was a generation ago.

Why so much bile? Geez, we're talking about vehicles that could get in the 70+ mpg range with an engine smaller than 2 l, but yet still cranking out nearly 200 ft-lbs (~270 Nm?).

"Hybrid hypermilers can beat that easily."

Just keep in mind that those are hybrid *gasoline* electric vehicles. Hybrids are not limited to gas engines... they can apply to diesels too! I think diesel is a step forward, because even without a hybrid system, its fuel economy approaches current day hybrid gas electrics. Imagine making one of these clean diesels into a hybrid diesel electric and just think of the fuel economy it'd have.

Another thing is diesel and biofuel go hand in hand, because of the nature of a diesel engine.

These will be great cars, and they will lead to even better things.

I would love this to be the start of the end for oil but its not likely. Don't jump the gun even the people that live there are not worried:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L04279107.htm
then again they could be doomed.

Out comes the "weekend effect" foolishness.

The “weekend effect” has been documented for years if not decades, especially in California. Hardly “foolishness”.

”Let's pollute more to clean our air! That's the ticket!”

Then what’s your explanation for it? Just because something is counterintuitive doesn’t negate the phenomenon.