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Toyota Down On Plug-In Conversions
29 June 2007
In a memo sent to the US Senate Finance Committee during their deliberations, Toyota outlined its concerns with the conversion of existing hybrids such as the Prius to plug-in hybrids (PHEV) in the context of proposed incentives to spur PHEV adoption. CalCars published the document.
Toyota’s view, according to Charles Ing, Director, Government Affairs Toyota Motor North America, is that PHEV converters should comply with existing standards governing second-stage manufacturers; that NHTSA and EPA should be required to establish new regulations for the certification of conversions of used vehicles—thereby putting the product liability and warranty risk onto the converter; and that the government should assure that there be no degradation in emissions and vehicle safety before it provides taxpayer incentives for conversion.
At the top of Toyota’s list is the concern over the degradation of emissions (higher NOx and total HC emissions) exhibited by a converted Prius PHEV than by a stock Prius. (Earlier post.)
This raises the question of whether the government should be paying people to make their cars dirtier?
—Toyota memo
Toyota also expressed a specific concern over converted PHEVs being out of compliance with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS), noting that after-market converters do not perform crash testing to certify that the converted vehicle meets or exceeds FMVSS.
Toyota also cited a number of general concerns:
Increased risk of fire from lithium-ion batteries. This may particularly resonate with Toyota given its delay of introducing lithium-ion batteries in the next-generation Prius, reportedly due to thermal management problems.
Increased risk of injury in an accident. Aftermarket batteries, Toyota argues, can compromise the fuel system and/or crashworthiness, even becoming projectiles in an accident.
Adverse effect on rear suspension. The addition of hundreds of pounds of extra weight in the rear of the vehicle compromises the rear suspension and handling and stability.
Compromised powertrain and voiding of warranty. Toyota charges that converters “hack into and modify” the software in the engine control module, which may damage the battery pack and engine, and also voids the warranty.
Increased risk of electrical shock. Toyota said it was unaware of any testing to ensure compatibility between the conversion kit batteries and home electrical wiring.
Removal of spare tire. Removing the spare tire to allow placement of the battery “poses a risk in the event of a flat tire in an emergency situation.”
Non-compliance with EPA regulations. To the extent hybrid plug-in converters interfere with the ECM and the vehicle's emissions, the vehicle may then not be in compliance with EPA regulations.
In response, CalCars founder Felix Kramer commented that the bill’s definition of “qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle” means they must meet environmental, as well as National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NTSA) and Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. Most of Toyota’s objections, in other words, will not apply to eligible vehicles as defined in the bill.
CalCars values conversions because they increase awareness and support for PHEVs. At the same time, they offer a partial response to the intense demand for PHEVs from people who can’t believe we have to wait for years for something we should already have. Our strategic goal in promoting conversions is to motivate, pressure and incentivize carmakers to build PHEVs. Of course, once automakers finally do sell PHEVs, there will also be many hundreds of thousands of hybrid candidates for safe, affordable, warranted retrofits.
Our large international car companies are the ones who should be resolving the issues raised—they can do the job right!
—Felix Kramer
June 29, 2007 in Conversions, Plug-ins, Policy | Permalink | Comments (33) | TrackBack (0)
Comments
Posted by: | July 02, 2007 at 03:04 PM
Paul Dietz:
If your are do convined please check the QED mini at this site:
www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/country/ecf/newsID/2060724/mini/pml-builds-649hp electric-mini
Posted by: | July 02, 2007 at 03:32 PM
I like that electric mini. Is there any video of it in action? I can't seem to find any on youtube or Google.
Posted by: Elliot | July 03, 2007 at 01:04 AM
Paul, if independants can do it, why not Toyota?
The independents can't do it, if you mean following all the rules Toyota has to, and pricing the vehicles at a point that would make volume production feasible.
Posted by: Paul Dietz | July 03, 2007 at 10:47 AM
What about the Ebox built on a Scion Xb frame. This is a vehicle that seats five, is MUCH faster off the line than a standard Scion and is all electric. The technology is completely off the shelf.
The reason the major automobile manufacterers don't want to see electric cars or series hybrids in production is that they make modular vehicles possible. In a few years you will see any crashed Prius pounced upon by hobbyists and cannibalized for parts for their own conversions. The first thing any car customizer will do to a Prius is replace that tiny electric engine with something that can provide ALL the power needed to go.
Electric cars are here and here to stay. As long as the parts and batteries are available people will assemble their own. The first major to offer a full size series hybrid will kill the competition. That goes double for the first outfit to offer a PHEV delivery/utility vehicle comparable to the small Isuzu diesel.
Posted by: Pangonlin | July 04, 2007 at 08:38 PM
When considering plug in anything to the grid. As it stands we need be understood that the grid is not some free or clean source of energy. Worldwide my gues is that 90xx% derived from coal. The CO2 values as I understand are Brown coal 4.? ton per ton brown coal. 2.5ton per ton black or coking coal. .9 for gasoline.
Efficiency savings from thermal efficiency
saves ? 100%-+ =?
losses=270 to 500% CO2 ouch!
transmission losses, conversions up and down voltage @ <2% each time, losses in battery charging etc.
Benefit so far 300-500% Negative!
Upside? I have been curious as to the possibility of plug ins while connected to act as a store or sink that on demand ie price sensitive or strategic requisition could feed any sag on the grid.
There are any no of ways prioritising the grid (wich seems never to get a mention)
As I have heard a petrol equivalent pricing of one fith or less per litre.
That power co's are happy too pay 2x for remote generation capacity or peak demand
We've all heard of the huge costs associated with supplying peak demand and damage from grid crashes, ultimately reaching infinity ie: "cant provide at any cost."
Given some imaginative accounting I'll get the price down to free!
The drawback will be that the CO2 emissions will be efficiency losses (???) (x) CO2 per litre equivalent @ between 2-5x.
I dont suggest this as costed but as with much statistics and formulae, It depends on the input accuracy and interpretation.
I have no problem with respecting the above in concept wich leads to the next question.
All those cars batteries etc etc need to be quantified and the environmental costs or benifits estimated.
Only by doing contemplating and studying the implications will we get even close to the bottom lines.
For that we need to encourage developers and hats off to them. As it stands,to my mind the grid has much to catch up from the start.
I havent seen the electric power advocates too open to desribing these issues rose coloured glasses wont solve this problem.
There are those who would see a future of limitless (nuclear) or hydrogen from ?? (nuclear) or some such.
I consider the problem as here now on this planet not some fantasy futureworld.
But the way its going I'll be open to persuasion.
Posted by: arnie | July 05, 2007 at 10:37 PM
arnie: You may want to revisit you're carbon calculations. EVs are much more efficient than ICE cars.
In addition, EVs give you the ability to use a variety of primary energy sources, including much cleaner forms. Even if you're using the dirtiest coal, you at least have the opportunity to sequester the carbon or use it for other purposes (greenfuels etc..)
Posted by: NeilPackrat | July 06, 2007 at 10:19 AM
Teen driver education online avoids accidents and makes you authroized licensed drivers. Teen driver education course is DMV approved, designed for teenagers. Its easy, effective, afforadble and interesting.
Posted by: pearl | September 20, 2007 at 10:57 PM
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Well said Gerald.
Paul, if independants can do it, why not Toyota?