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Toyota to Obtain Permission for Public Road Test for Plug-in Prius in Japan
18 July 2007
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| Asahi.com’s rendering of the plug-in. |
Asahi.com. Toyota Motor Co. will obtain permission from Japan’s Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport by the end of July for the testing of a prototype plug-in Prius on public roads.
Toyota will be the first car maker to obtain permission for a plug-in hybrid test in Japan. After completing the road tests, Toyota will start building a way to market the model by leasing them to public (government and municipal) offices.
According to the report, Toyota is testing a lithium-ion battery pack in the plug-in.
Earlier this year, Nikkei Business speculated that Toyota would introduce the plug-in at the Tokyo Motor Show in November.
(translation by Futoshi SATO)
July 18, 2007 in Japan, Plug-ins | Permalink | Comments (46) | TrackBack (0)
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Will it also fun on gas? Gas is passe.
Posted by: Randy | Jul 18, 2007 7:32:33 PM
Wow! Are you kidding!!? This is just the news many of us have been waiting for.
I must admit, when Toyota hinted that they will go back to using NiMH batteries on the 09 Prius model change, I thought Toyota considered PHEVs to be a back burner project.
Anyone know what this permission from Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transportation, is about? Do any other countries have this requirement? If it is like our EPA, that usually isn’t required til later in the development cycle.
Posted by: George K | Jul 18, 2007 8:01:50 PM
Go back to NiMH? I thought they were still NiMH... Whatever. It's great news that this is finally happening. Does anyone know how many kg of NiMH batteries would be needed for a decent PHEV?
Posted by: George | Jul 18, 2007 8:27:14 PM
Oh, wait. I see that they are testing LiIon for the PHEV. That makes more sense. It seems a little weird that they feel a need to "start building a way to market the model"... Seems to me that a good PHEV would sell itself.
Posted by: George | Jul 18, 2007 8:31:07 PM
Many of us have waited for Toyota to announce this move; however, because the test mule uses a LiIon battery and Toyota is on record delaying the implementation of LiIon, I suspect it will a while before we see them on our roads.
The good news is they have a PHEV working on the road and that's very encouraging. Maybe I won't need to drive my old Volvo all that much longer since I decided to wait for BEVs. If it's a good car with a good electrical range, I might decide to buy the PHEV and not wait.
Posted by: Lad | Jul 18, 2007 8:48:36 PM
GREAT NEWS . THE GREEN WORLD IS WAITING FOR THIS NEWS. WE IN INDIA WOULD LIKE TO LEAP FROM DIESTLY TO THIS PLUG IN HYBRIDS. WE CANT AFFORD THE GAS GUZZLERS.
Posted by: NIRMALSINH WALA | Jul 18, 2007 9:15:22 PM
Toyota needs to convert all of their SUV's and MiniVans to PHEV and Diesel technology. What a winner. 30% greater fuel efficiency with the Diesel engine plus more efficient LI-Ion batterys carrying 10x the power that the old fashioned NiMetal Hydride batteries carry. We can convert in 5 years to a low carbon footprint society if Toyota will have the moral courage to lead the way now. Why wait will the 2009 model year. The time to change is now.
Posted by: Tom | Jul 18, 2007 9:48:51 PM
Will it also fun on gas? Gas is passe.
Is that why only one (1) highway-capable electric automobile sold in the US in 2004 and 2005 (to George Clooney, no less)? Because gas is "passe"?
Patience, grasshopper.
Posted by: Johnny | Jul 18, 2007 10:03:52 PM
Yes! Today is a good day. I like Toyota, like the plug-in, I even like that little graphic that goes with the story. Let's hope some more automakers make surprises just like this pretty soon. Oh, and that one can plug in the new Supra, too!
Posted by: Elliot | Jul 18, 2007 10:58:21 PM
George K., unlike the US, where indiviuals are free to modify their cars whatever way they like and still legaly operate it on the road (most times), nearly all other countries have very strict regulations concerning technical modifications on public road going vehicles.
I.e. even installing a different looking alloy wheel of the same diameter does need a permit and TUV certificate in germany - and noone's talking about a major change in the drivetrain of the car yet...
For a manufacturer, these rules are even more stringent, and starting the legal procedures to be allowed for a road test, does not necessarily mean that the car is already ready, or that the tests will actually be done... (But deep-pocketed companies are unlikely to turn around at that stage).
Anyway, I'm wondering if this is a one-way AC/DC converter, or a two-way, installed in this PHEV (without, or with V2G capabilities). Also, V2G does not necessarily mean that it can be run as an emergency power generator. Throwing in the few parts necessary for V2G (primarily a frequency follower on the AC side) and also for island operation (w/o external voltage / frequency input to sync the V2G part) would make such a V2G PHEV the perfect, high-power emergency power unit.
As a diesel generator in the 2,5 kW range costs between 1000 and 7000 USD (depending on features), there could be huge demand for a car offering these features, plus transportation, plus very cheap refilling (with electricity) plus the potential to make money (V2G peak power sell-back).
The only problem I see for a business plan for such a Prius is - how can I build them fast enough...
Posted by: realarms | Jul 18, 2007 11:33:54 PM
Ok GM and Ford, the race is on. Are you fossils or evolutionary winners? The Germans seem to have wandered off down a diesel dead end. Where are Nissan and Mazda anyway? They seem to have disappeared. Will somebody please wake up Chrysler!
Posted by: NeilPackrat@telus.net | Jul 18, 2007 11:35:28 PM
(insert shameless drooling sounds here)
Go Toyota! I've been dreaming of a manufacturer-backed PHEV ever since I bought my Prius in 2004. That dream only intensified in 2005 when I converted my house to solar power. Right now I'm donating about $200/year of free electricity to my local power company.
Like the poster named "Lad", I would consider retiring my second car early, to upgrade to a PHEV. Given that my second car is a pretty good one -- a Honda Civic with 113,000 miles on it, which gets 30 MPG -- that's saying a lot.
Posted by: John L. | Jul 18, 2007 11:50:16 PM
I read the Japanese article mentioned above and my interpretation is slightly different.
The Ministry of Land and Transport permission is a formality. It just means registration of a type of vehicle that is not currently resistered for use. Toyota will have no problems there.
Leasing to government offices in Aichi Prefecture (where Toyota HQ is based) is to gather performance data and check safety of the vehicle as a first step towards becoming the first commercial PHEV producer in the world.
The article also quoted the President of Toyota (Mr Katsuaki Watanabe)saying that among the many low pollution engine developments, such as clean diesel etc, the Hybrid is Toyota's core technology. Their strategy is to maintain Toyota's leading position in Hybrid technology with the PHEV which has an even lower environmental impact than existing hybrids.
Sounds to me like they will be giving it a serious push.
Posted by: TokyoJoe | Jul 18, 2007 11:51:09 PM
"the first commercial PHEV producer in the world."
Both Renault (Electroad) and Audi (Duo) had PHEVs on public roads in Europe many years ago. Sadly, the battery tech wasn't quite ready for the big time back then, so they didn't make commercial success. Things are different now though....
Posted by: clett | Jul 19, 2007 1:17:07 AM
This may kill the Volt project before it gets started. If Toyota is good, there will be an all electric range of 40 or so miles as well.
Posted by: dave | Jul 19, 2007 5:35:23 AM
Instead of making a lot of fanfare and a big announcement way before they are ready with a real car for testing, they simply announce they are going to be testing, and soon.
In some ways, Toyota has sort of a dilemma, which may explain why they are not making a big deal about the plug in. They don't want to steal the thunder from their next upgrade (2009?) of the Prius. If people get the idea that the plug in will become a production car pretty soon they may delay further their new purchase or upgrade of their existing Prius.
To solve this problem, perhaps they should make the next upgrade to the Prius plug in ready to make it easy to get a Toyota provided upgraded of their next Prius. That seems like the best of both worlds.
Posted by: tom | Jul 19, 2007 5:44:12 AM
Will the 2009 third generation Prius III have a PHEV option?
If so, will this first generation Toyota PHEV use NiMH or Li-Ion batteries?
Will the energy storage unit (s) have various options, i.e. size + technology?
Will super-caps (+ AWD) be offered to recuperate more decelleration energy and increase the electric ONLY range, specially in city driving.
There is so much room for improvement with PHEVs that it may take a few years before all the possible options become available.
Fortunately, Toyota is there to make it happen. I hope to buy a Toyota first generation PHEV in late 2009.
Posted by: | Jul 19, 2007 6:33:34 AM
Why can't you guys wait on Ford's PHEV? According to
the last article I read Ford/Edison will have a test PHEV ready in 2009 and will test for 6 to 10 years.
Posted by: Brady | Jul 19, 2007 6:41:27 AM
If Toyota still has questions about Li-ion why don't they just use a bigger NIMH? The way I see it a 5 seat Prius is overkill. They could offer a 4 seat version with the centre rear seat replaced by a battery box + work/coffee table. NiMH isn't a toxic battery tech so there's no fear of putting it in with the passengers, is it?
Posted by: ai_vin | Jul 19, 2007 8:26:27 AM
I'm also waiting for a PHEV. I want to be able to run this vehicle on energy produced locally. So that means solar/wind electricity (which I can make in my back yard) and bio fuels (which I can buy from my local farm cooperative). Until then, I'm driving my 1990 Honda rather than invest in more dead end products.
Toyota is well positioned to provide the car I'm looking for but another car company could take some risk and get there also.
I'd rather see Japan get rich than continue to support the middle east radicals.
Posted by: Ed | Jul 19, 2007 8:31:18 AM
The main dilemma is to use safer lower energy density NiMH or more dangerous higher density LiIon. The various LiIon battery recalls and fires that were taking place on notebook computers are making car makers such as Toyota leery of LiIon.
Prius problem is that the current NiMH is too small for PHEV. You can charge it but you cannot store much energy. Thus they would have to make it bigger, add more cells, to be able to charge any sort of non-trivial amount of electricity. The additional space required would significantly reduce interior/cargo space. You don't loose the 5th seat only, but also a good chunk of cargo space as well.
Today Prius is marketed as a mainstream family car with a comprable space as conventional cars. Once you enlarge the NiMH battery pack that is no longer possible. Their marketing strategy changes and they risk loosing sales.
Therefore change to LiIon is inevitable. Except Toyota doesn't want to be the 1st one to do it. Heck none of them want to be the 1st one. They are all afreaid of big dires/explosion, even possible deaths and lawsuits.
LiIon is known for a limited current draw range (NiMH is much more tolerant of very high current draw - they may fail but not blow up). LiIon makers claim that they have solved that problem and now offer high current draw versions. However car makers are still afraid.
So it all comes down to how good the latest LiIon battery for high current draw are. Toyota doesn't want to do it, but risks loosing the Prius brand lead. GM Volt could quickly take the hybrid crown from Toyota if they are successful.
So here we are. GM is pushing forward full spead ahead with LiIon because they have nothing to loose. Toyota has the lead so they have a lot to loose. Thus they are making a reluctant modifications to Prius to satisfy clients while keeping most of the original design intact.
I predict that the new Prius will STILL have a limited electricity capacity and will have a POOR pure electric range. Meanwhile GM Volt and whatever Ford comes up with will have a longer pure electric range, but of course will be brand new designs with the usual reliability ant other issues.
Bottom line is it will take a long time. I am sure gasoline prices will double by the time we have a decent range PHEV with a decent reliability/operability.
Posted by: q | Jul 19, 2007 9:30:21 AM
Regarding the V2G 'reverse' application for this (or any PHEV): Assuming there is a power outage, where does the 60Hz 'pilot' frequency come from in order to sync up the PHEV's 'feeding' the grid? Does the local utility provide this over a separate comm. line?
Are there any utility specs. out there that discuss this and the other safety aspects of V2G? How would the load be regulated?
John L: Why are you 'donating' $200/yr. of power to the local utility? Don't you have a net metering setup at your residence?
Posted by: bert | Jul 19, 2007 9:31:00 AM
I pretty much agree with what Ed is saying here. I already own an 06 Prius and it is a great car to drive. When it came time to replace my old 240D that ran on B100 the Prius was an easy choice to make. The low emissions and high mileage were 2 big reasons for this choice.
After driving the Prius for a few months I built an Electric motorcycle. See www.zevutah.com for details.
My latest project has been to add solar panels to the workshop roof, so that I can charge the bike with clean electricity. That is now project is now working great.
My wifes car is a 10 year old Subaru with 120k miles on it. The replacement for that car will be either a PHEV or a BEV like the Chevy Volt.
Hey Toyota and Chevy are you listening ?????
Posted by: KJD | Jul 19, 2007 9:43:06 AM
Toyota saying "start building a way to market the model" could have something to do with the fact that Toyota spent millions telling the public "you never have to plug it (the Prius) in". They need to reverse that marketing slogan before heading in the opposite direction.
Permission to test this vehicle on the street may be typical in Japan. But remember that plug-in hybrids in large numbers will significantly affect the amount of road taxes collected. Because the current Prius gets 100% of its energy from gasoline, it does not step on the toes of tax collectors. This unresolved road tax situation has been cited as one possible reason plug-in hybrids have been so slow and development.
Posted by: Lee | Jul 19, 2007 10:16:53 AM
I do believe this is good news, but until Toyota develops a series hybrid I still wouldn't be interested. Too much complexity in a parallel system.
Posted by: pstoller78 | Jul 19, 2007 10:21:43 AM
I doubt V2G will actually happen.
Whats more likely is G2G.
http://greyfalcon.net/plugins5
i.e. After a battery is 20% worn down, it's no longer good for transportation.
But it's 80% battery life left is still good for grid storage.
_
This fixes the dilemma of a car operator wearing down their expensive car batteries.
Instead the grid operators will own exclusive rights to batteries they can buy at a cut rate price.
Posted by: GreyFlcn | Jul 19, 2007 10:34:36 AM
So is the 2009 Prius to be LiIon PHEV? Is that the consensus? It wouldn't make sense to make news like this and then release a car that's not PHEV, this type of information would eat at their sales as informed people would wait until the PHEV arrives before they buy. Plus it would be a huge letdown to not be PHEV.
Posted by: Elliot | Jul 19, 2007 10:38:41 AM
Was said
" Toyota spent millions telling the public "you never have to plug it (the Prius) in". They need to reverse that marketing slogan before heading in the opposite direction. "
Not sure if they really need to reverse the slogan or just change the option list.
The Hybrid market will continue to grow as the price of gasoline continues to rise. These events move in tandem.
What Toyota could do is offer 2 models of Prius.
Base model Prius would be much the same as today's car as in HEV only.
High end Prius model could be a PHEV with bigger batteries and a plug in option.
Posted by: KJD | Jul 19, 2007 11:04:23 AM
pstoller78: "Too much complexity in a parallel system."
I too like the simple concept of a serial PHEV, but I've had to re-examine that preference since attending a lecture given by Prof. Andy Frank (U. Cal. Davis). The fellow is pretty much the father of the PHEV. He's built a number of them in a variety of configurations and has settled on parallel as the best (I believe for efficiency reasons). At this point I'm willing to look at either type, I just want to see one on the market.
Posted by: NeilPackrat | Jul 19, 2007 1:57:56 PM
Yes good news. If you factor in the sustainability factor Honda is ahead of Toyo. I'll consider a Prius when Toyo gets transparent about the EMF's produced by their engines and when the comes up with a better battery. Right now the main mineral in their batteries in mined in Canada causing significant harm there. The mineral is then shipped to another country for processing. So most Prius' are full of stuff the is shipped all over the world in order to make the car. How about a car made from local stuff. Check out healthtcar.org.
Posted by: Randy | Jul 19, 2007 2:04:21 PM
All that is needed is a battery with 10 mile range. At 10 miles / day, it works out to 3,000 miles / year (assuming we drive 300 out of 365 days / year).
And 3,000 miles is 25 % of the average distance driven which is 12,000 miles / year in US.
Most important thing is the price premium. It should be less than $3,000 compared to regular Prius.
Please note the fact that only people who live in SINGLE FAMILY & TOWN houses can plugin while those in Apartment cannot. So it cuts out 1/3 of the US households from buying this vehicle, while in Europe/China/Japan and elsewhere, %age of those who cannot use is even higher.
But eventually, gas stations may offer Quick charge facility which will help everyone.
Posted by: Max Reid | Jul 19, 2007 2:45:12 PM
Lets be clear here.
If Toyota does this it will change the car market forever. Having the vision and forsight to test this is one thing. Put in on the roads in the USA and the industry will change. Toyota will be like awesome and everyone will want a car. I would sign up now for a PHEV. If america can get everyone in PHEV and kill their dependence on foreign oil that would be great. No need to fight wars to protect oil fields. Bring on the revolution. Toyota i saulute you.
Posted by: Christian | Jul 19, 2007 4:40:25 PM
You know, Ford and GM produced hybrid prototypes during the Clinton administration; Gore's future vehicle program. Both vehicles were mid-size 4-door sedans, a little larger than a Prius, both engines turbocharged diesels. Their mileage was 70 and 80mpg respectively. GM backed up its engine/motor drivetrain with a fuel cell stack and hydrogen tank. Ford backed up their hybrid drivetrain with a battery pack; simpler and more versatile for other technological applications. I'm still wondering why GM was adverse to a design incorporating a battery pack. I mean, the EV1 battery pack problems were quickly resolved and proven reliable.
I think the PHEV discussion needs to get beyond simple mileage potential, and get into how they offer exclusive safety features. PHEV, the safest car of all!
How much money would fewer accidents and loss of life save? Did I just equate fewer loss of lives and money? Shame on me.
Posted by: Wells | Jul 19, 2007 4:56:03 PM
While I applaud Toyota for their hybrid technology & to be the first out of the gate proposing a PHEV, how about we forget gas! Why don't we all switch to compressed air vehicles. If we want a hybrid then how about electric & air. Makes more sense to me if we junk the internal combustion engine running on fossil fuel!
http://www.theaircar.com/
Posted by: Roy | Jul 19, 2007 5:46:32 PM
I'm tired of looking at LiIon and not knowing how to pronounce it. How about changing the name to Lithion?
LiIon is so awkward.
Posted by: Swen | Jul 19, 2007 5:53:44 PM
Re: State Governments losing tax revenues.
State Governments, then, should install public charging
stations requiring the use of a Charging Station Credit
Card. The utility collects a certain percentage, the government skims a certain percentage.
By the way, full charge take 10m or less now.
Posted by: Swen | Jul 19, 2007 6:06:37 PM
I think a lot of people would be happy with just 20KM of electric range in a Prius if that's what it takes to keep the battery from wearing out prematurely.
You could buy a second battery as a option if you like.
Posted by: Brad Harris | Jul 19, 2007 6:33:11 PM
In reply to Ed: it is actually not a binary choice; besides NiMH and LiIon there are Lithium battery technologies that are inherently safe and high-current. Two are A123 and Altairnano. A123's batteries are used in Dewalt power tools and in Bill Dube's Killacycle (which uses a decent fraction of its pack capacity in a mere 8 seconds during a standing quarter mile trial). Altairnano's technology was recently demonstrated in Phoenix Motorcars' SUT getting recharged in 10 minutes (now that is high-current!).
Posted by: Earl Killian | Jul 19, 2007 6:44:07 PM
Well, don't this just kick a little ass.
Posted by: Gary | Jul 20, 2007 2:01:24 AM
"John L: Why are you 'donating' $200/yr. of power to the local utility? Don't you have a net metering setup at your residence?"
Posted by: bert | Jul 19, 2007 9:31:00 AM
I do have net metering. But I also have a time-of-use meter. I pay, or get paid, different rates for power at different times of the day and year.
As far as kilowatt-hours, I offset 93% of what I consume.
BUT my PV modules face southwest, with it turns out is the optimal direction for generating peak power. I underestimated just how valuable that would turn out to be. So I am generating more peak-power credits, at $0.42/kWh, than I draw during the off-peak hours, at prices as low as $0.09/kWh.
After a one-year period, any credits that I accumulate with the power company are zeroed. I draw heavily on those credits during the winter months, when California has its rainy season and the sun is low in the sky. Still, I just can't spend it all down.
An optimal PV system for me would probably have been one that offsets just 80% of my electricity use.
There are bills circulating in the California State Assembly which would require the utility companies to pay people like me in cash at the end of a year. Of course, the utilities hate that.
In the meantime, a PHEV would use up my energy credits nicely. That $200 buys about 2,200 kWh, which would translate into roughly 8,000 miles of PHEV travel. A PHEV with a 25-mile range would use what I have to spare.
Posted by: John L. | Jul 20, 2007 8:09:52 PM
Toyota (and Zap) knows very well that playing it safe in the EV world Right Now, not 2009 0r 2010 means NANOSAFE. They have been talking talking talking to AltairNano.........In the meantime Alcoa, EEEI, ISE, AES,Lightning Electric, PG&E, Pheonix MC,Aerovironment, maybe Symphony and other not yet named OEMs/Battery manufacturers already went beyond the talking stage.
Nanosafe changed the game and if you want to play it SAFE....well NanoSafe....you got to walk the talk.
Plugin2Go & Plugin2G are Altairnative.com ideas.
Posted by: Altarian1 | Jul 21, 2007 6:27:45 AM
Looking at the comments above it would seam that no one is suggesting that hybrid vehicals should be made which can run on a mix of fuels gas / ethanol would seam to be the best bet for many countries. I don't think that it would be beyond the engineers at any large manufacturer to detect the proportions of gas and ethanol being fed to the engine and adjust the engine management to cope with anything from pure gas to pure ethanol. Then there would be no problem moving between areas where ethanol was the prefered option and gas using areas.
Slow recharging of BEVs or PHEVs over night at cheap rates looks to be a good idea but fast charging at a gas station of a BEV may well be at peak electricity prices. These often can exceed the cost of gas.
Posted by: Martin Lee | Jul 21, 2007 1:15:32 PM
Was said
"BUT my PV modules face southwest, with it turns out is the optimal direction for generating peak power. I underestimated just how valuable that would turn out to be. So I am generating more peak-power credits, at $0.42/kWh, than I draw during the off-peak hours, at prices as low as $0.09/kWh."
I would like to see more information on your home setup with the panels that face southwest. Do you have it on a web site anywhere?
What power companies pay more for peak than off peak. From what I hear of Rocky Mtn Power they pay just 4 cents per kwh all day and all year. Thats one of the reasons my system is "off grid" and used to power my EV.
You can see details of my EV project at www.zevutah.com
Posted by: KJD | Jul 21, 2007 2:30:57 PM
Toyota must promote its patented semi-parallel hybrid system other wise it would not get royalties. If the starting point is a battery electric vehicle and V2G technology with mostly local driving a series hybrid has fewer mechanical complexities and cost. Most Diesel locomotives are series electric hybrids without batteries. There are a few hydraulic coupled large locomotives. Wheel motors make a series hybrid almost imperative. Electric hybrids may always be more expensive than hydraulic hybrids. Series hybrids would allow the use of a more efficient single piston engine without worrying about torque pulses. Parry People movers have a very large flywheel for their hydraulic hybrid rail-tram. Perhaps the high-power low-capacity battery in a hybrid should be replaced with ultra-capacitors or a small flywheel for lower costs. The Prius would get most of its present mileage with ultra capacitors. Calcars has shown that even low-cost lead acid batteries will work for low-power high-energy storage in a Prius for plug in applications. The California car market and US SUV market has shown that economy of purchase or operation is not of high concern in the majority of cases. Small engines have enough power for freeway speed driving on the level, but even power drills and vacuum cleaners have to have more horse-power, volts or amps to compete in the market place. I am waiting for the advertisment:" Toyota Prius now with 444 VOLTS."...HG..
Posted by: Henry Gibson | Jul 23, 2007 12:01:09 PM
Maybe you need to be a company with it's origins on a small island to give a sh*t about melting ice caps and rising sea levels. Not surprising it's a Japanese company blazing this trail. Screw big auto in the US, they are more in bed with big oil than anyone.
Posted by: chillpill | Jul 23, 2007 3:22:55 PM
good morning its cool to heard about the cars to be running on this.
Posted by: viral malviya | Jul 24, 2007 1:58:06 AM
