"The Segways can be used in areas where cars cannot enter, thereby adding an extra mobility option"

Or you could walk, just as a novel mobility option.

Or you could walk, just as a novel mobility option.

Good one.

I'm falling behind, I'm still waiting for a Wankel!!!

Biking is also good. But for those that live to far away from their point B of necessity why can't they drive a PHEV?

Biking is also good. But for those that live to far away from their point B of necessity why can't they drive a PHEV?

The reference was to a Segway, Benji. Please don't speak if you're not paying attention.

Beyond the whole miles/kWh issue, here's my two cents on this E-Flex variant:

The 136kW battery pack is equivalent to about 182 horsepower. I don't know if the motor will be designed to handle this, but the Volt's motor was about 160hp. So is the electrical system different at all in the Opel?
Regardless, the range, acceleration and top speed are all lower.

In my estimation, this is probably because the diesel engine is heavier, and the efficiency of diesel has been mitigated by advanced emission controls mandated by Euro 5. So fat lot of good the advanced diesel technology has done for the overall equation.

That plus the dead weight of those...f'in segways (barely contained wrath).

That plus the dead weight of those...f'in segways (barely contained wrath).

Reminds me a bit of the "Swiss Army Knife" design philosophy of the Aztek.

A very aesthetically pleasing design, much more so than the GM Volt. Congratulation, GM!

However, please take the following quote with "a grain of salt", (as Rafael has eloquently stated so).

Quote from the article: "Based on the current European test procedure ECE R101 for range extender vehicles, GM expects the Flextreme to emit less than 40 g CO2/km in combustion mode."

80g CO2 /km is pushing it, which is equivalent to >60 mpg. 40gm CO2/km (>120 mpg) is pure hype!

The only gCO2/km number that would have any meaning would be for the vehicle operating in HEV mode once the batter is run down. Prior to that CO2 and other pollutants strictly depend on the power source. If you're in France it would be almost zero CO2. (but you'd have to calculate the rads/km)

Or you could walk, just as a novel mobility option.

Of course you could walk, but with Segway, thank God, you don't have to.

@ Neil:

"The only gCO2/km number that would have any meaning would be for the vehicle operating in HEV mode once the battery is run down."
And from the article:

"less than 40 g CO2/km in combustion mode."

Hence, combustion mode seems mean the same as HEV mode.

I don't know the details of the ECE R101 protocol (anyone have a link to it?), so for the moment I don't have any objections to Roger and Rafael's incredulity over 40gm/km. But I will agree with them and Neil that "miles per gallon" is starting to become a rather murky concept.

Of course you could walk, but with Segway, thank God, you don't have to.

I know. And one day, thank God, computers will be so smart we won't have to bother using our own brains, either.

But I will agree with them and Neil that "miles per gallon" is starting to become a rather murky concept.

That's why I prefer BTU per passenger-km as well as the best lifcycle emissions per unit of work (in this case, per passenger-km). Using metrics such as "mpg" to describe what's really going on with vehicles like PHEVs is only useful if your only concern is petroleum dependence -- and even then it's not that useful.

@ AES -

I have no *proof* that either GM or Volvo are cooking the numbers, so I'm not making a hard accusation. I'm just warning people to double-check their respective claims.

You proposed one method, let me suggest another. I'll use the Volvo ReCharge as an example because I have its numbers in my head.

Fuel economy in NEDC once ICE is active: 2.8L/50km = 5.6L/100km
1L gasoline = ~8.75kWh
Tank-to-wheels efficiency estimate: ~0.24
kWh/100km at the tread: ~12

Now, when the vehicle is running on grid power alone, it will need to deliver the same kWh/100km at the tread. It'll just take them from a different source.

Battery-to-wheels efficiency: ~0.95*0.93*0.85 = 0.75
Battery capacity: 12kWh
Est. range on grid electricity:
100% delta SOC, damages battery: ~12*0.75/12 * 100 = ~75km
95% down to 30% SOC: ~50km

Note that I've adjusted the battery charge/discharge efficiency upward to 0.95 after our exchange yesterday. Even so, Volvo's claim of 100km in the NEDC on grid electricity alone appears to be rather optimistic. However, there's really no need for them to shoot for the moon: even the lower number of 50km (30mi) off grid electricity alone would be very useful for daily commuting.

Finally, consider this: maybe - just maybe - the EV1 program was cancelled precisely because someone figured out late in the game that the NiMH batteries used would not in fact last very long at all, given that the high range per charge event advertised to customers implied fairly aggressive deep cycling.

GM is folding some of the Opel design work into their Saturn sport car line - SKY. This design looks like the greener extension of that. VOLT is scheduled for a 2010 introduction (road testing has begun) - I suspect this will be a year later to the sales floor. All in all another good move by the company we love to hate.

Wait, the GM actually closed down the EV1 because of engineering problems? But the conspiracy theories sound so good!

And remember, walking is for the unemployed.

Am I the only one who thinks that the PHEV concept makes for a kinda complicated, high initial cost, high maintenance cost vehicle? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a small BEV commuter vehicle and use a separate, high-mileage (say clean diesel micro-hybrid) vehicle for road trips? Here in the USA, families own multiple vehicles by default, almost. Why drag that genset around all the time? A BEV commuter could be much lighter and almost maintenance free.

Am I the only one who thinks that the PHEV concept makes for a kinda complicated, high initial cost, high maintenance cost vehicle? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a small BEV commuter vehicle and use a separate, high-mileage (say clean diesel micro-hybrid) vehicle for road trips? Here in the USA, families own multiple vehicles by default, almost. Why drag that genset around all the time? A BEV commuter could be much lighter and almost maintenance free.

Careful, Nick -- don't start suggesting ideas which don't just involve building a better mousetrap. Next thing you know people might think of how to lure the mouse out of the house. Remember - one vehicle must deal with all potential situations, just like the Pontiac Aztek. ;)

I wish they would forget about diesel & gasoline unless
it's biodiesel. I want us weaned from M.E. oil as soon
as possible. I prefer ethanol. After all, if it's a
plug-in, you don't have to worry as much about how much
less mpg you get per gallon. If you're a commuter, it's all electric. Most of my mileage is to work and back, a
total of 21m. I can spend a little extra for the long trips. We need to focus on setting up the infrastructure
for dispensing ethanol now.

I could care less. GM is grand at displaying a lot of "vapor cars". Either ship one or more of those vapor cars or pack it in. All of you should be ashamed of yourselves for gushing at this obvious visual snake oil that GM keeps selling. What good is innovation if it doesn't make the car lot?

Remember when GM came out with the "skateboard" car design concept.

@ Raf-

My calculations were intended to show that the range provided by 50-70% DOD of these concept battery packs fits within reasonable efficiency ranges exemplified by other technologies that are reasonably well-documented. Thus, the misconception that was evident in the beginning should be cleared up:

"the portion driven on grid electricity may have been maximized for marketing purposes by starting with a fully charged battery and deep discharging it"

Thus implying that volt/flextreme systems require the full 16kWh to travel 40 miles - even with my cruder math that's 2.5 miles/kWh. Which is rather horrible, yet obviously not the case.

Adjusting your final data for the ReCharge with my simpler method yields:

70% DOD of 12kWh pack from 95% SOC is about 7.8kWh. The range achieved by this power, taking into Raf's calculations for transmission losses, is about 30 miles. So 30/7.8= ~3.84 miles per kWh. Still fairly reasonable compared to established real world data.

Even with that pessimistic efficiency as an assumption for all PHEV's, that would give a deep discharge range of 60 miles for the eflex. Which would be a bad idea obviously...

will the engine not run like a generator and so run at a very high efficiency?

i think we are more likely in the range of 4l/100km then around 5.5l/100km

Remember the Daihatsu UFE-III concept, which looked a fair bit like the Flextreme, managed a cool 34 g/km CO2 (170 mpg US) in "combustion mode" only, and that was with a gasoline engine.

http://www.daihatsu.com/motorshow/tokyo05/ufe3/index.html

Perhaps they really do have a car capable of 40 g/km "in combustion mode"?