What the...are they serious, or are they messing with someone's head?
2 possibilities: they are
1) going the conservative route; low risk, incremental improvements.
2) reducing promises and expectations, but will deliver the Li-ion battery (and perhaps a PHEV)obstensibly at the last minute.

They're probably emphasizing cost over major leaps in fuel economy, partly because of the lost tax credit, and simply because any price premium is a hurdle for many people, regardless of the payback period.

It's not like any mass market vehicle out there is seriously challenging the Prius on fuel economy at this point.

If they stuck a one liter diesel in it. No body will touch it for mileage.

"It's not like any mass market vehicle out there is seriously challenging the Prius on fuel economy at this point."

that is probably true in the States, but in the EU the Prius has quite a lot of competition in terms of fuel economy, for example Mini Cooper D, VW Polo Bluemotion, Smart Fortwo CDI, Citroen C1/C2, Fiat Panda are all as good or better than the Prius. given that European manufacturers can achieve hybrid-like performance with clean diesels, they may forego hybrids altogether and just focus on improving their diesels.

Reducing the hybrid cost premium by half is far more important commercially than the use of Li-ion battery, or a minor gain in fuel efficiency. Adding a diesel to it will raise the cost premium unacceptably.

Well, if they say they can match or beat diesels for highway cruising, and hybrids have the around-town advantage, and they're halving the cost of the hybrid components, that means that they can beat overall diesel economy and do it with emissions that are far cleaner.

I still think it's unfair to even the new diesels "clean" when they are still struggling to get the NOx emissions down to the pint where they can sell them in the U.S. at all. The gasoline hybrids are already among the cleanest emission vehicles in the U.S. mass market with respect to NOx and hydrocarbons.

I am in a part of the U.S. where ozone pollution is a major problem and the limiting reactant for ozone formation is NOx, not hydrocarbons. I love the idea of diesels but until they can keep up with gasoline engines on NOx, I will have to stick with gas.

An improved (NiMH) Prius III is required to compete with small EU diesels, ensure on-going sales and prepare the way to Prius PHEVs when lithium batteries become more reliable and affordable.

The improved Prius (III) is supposed to be marketed in mid-2008 as a 2009 model. It should cost another 1 or 2 thousand dollars less than current 2008 model. However, With the USA dollar going down, that could be difficult to do, unless......

It seems that the lithium Prius-PHEV may not be around before 2010-2011.

If they stuck a one liter diesel in it. No body will touch it for mileage.

A 1 liter diesel that meets year 2008 emission standards in a 3,000 pound vehicle?

that is probably true in the States, but in the EU the Prius has quite a lot of competition in terms of fuel economy, for example Mini Cooper D, VW Polo Bluemotion, Smart Fortwo CDI, Citroen C1/C2, Fiat Panda are all as good or better than the Prius. given that European manufacturers can achieve hybrid-like performance with clean diesels, they may forego hybrids altogether and just focus on improving their diesels.

Calling any of those "clean" is a stretch, considering that the NOx emissions of them range from 14 to 24 times that of the Prius, averaging 20 times the amount. Most, if not all, of those are considerably smaller and have less performance than a Prius, and all take fuel economy hits with an automatic transmission. Equalize acceleration, size, gearbox, and emissions, and there really isn't a comparison. Think about what Honda got out of their small hybrid with worse technology than that in the Prius - about 35% better real-world fuel economy between a 5-speed Insight and a Prius.

In the list you gave, the only one that has lower CO2 emissions (99 v 104 g/km) than the Prius is the Blue Motion - with a 5 speed and no A/C. I don't even see the fortwo CDI for sale in the UK.

But you're right that Europe is a different market and that's why the Prius doesn't sell as well there.

Seems like modest improvement in increments, vis a vis the Volt, which would, if built, be very bold. Of course the Volt could just be a ploy to dry up VC interest in the Tesla (I hope not). The difference in approach, though, reminds me of Boeing and Airbus.

I agree with Wes, in that the pollution challenges with even the least dirty of diesels may muddy the appeal to the Prius's demographic. And like Jack said, they definitely don't have any serious competition on the US market for fuel efficient vehicles right now.

"Of course the Volt could just be a ploy to dry up VC interest in the Tesla (I hope not). The difference in approach, though, reminds me of Boeing and Airbus."

Totally different vehicle type and market. The Volt WILL water down Tesla's hopes of making a big market splash with the WhiteStar though. Tesla has a niche right now, and they are probably going to stay in it for some time.

re:the article itself, either they've made a technological breakthrough with NiMH energy density (unlikely), or they're going to downsize the battery simply because the new cells can be more deeply discharged, and thus won't need to be sustained at 80%SOC like the current pack.

...as already mentioned, Clean Diesel is just a marketing gag. What about Clean Patrol? How were patrol cars called in the 80s? Indeed, Diesel just arrieved at the point, patrol cars were in the 80s. It's quite an achivement, isn't it? Thanks to Agrarian policy makers in Franco-Germania.

Still, I can not see the point, selling Diesel cars to town dwellers, as most of the customers are.

So, Toyota's approach is more convincing as the technological Diesel-step taken by German or French automakers.

Question: How much would a Prius cost, powerd by a ordinary German or French Diesel engine, assumed the emmisions and performance were the same as in the current Prius Hybrid?

it would be nice if you could get an aftermarket A123 pack and not have to buy the nimh pack.. or void the warranty..

how would they know if you replaced the nimh pack?.. as long as no permanent modifications were made :)

I think Honda's CR-Z Hybrid concept has made Toyota serious, combined with the soaring Oil prices.

Its high time, Toyota brings that Hybrid-X with Nickel batteries. Later they can add Lithium partly (initially) and then fully.

For ex - Nickel battery can have 8 mile range, later another Lithium battery giving another 8 mile, then 16 mile and finally replacing Nickel battery.

Today Oil prices touched $90.

2) reducing promises and expectations, but will deliver the Li-ion battery (and perhaps a PHEV)obstensibly at the last minute.

Toyota execs had to kill their lithium project because engineers had selected lithium-cobalt-oxide (aka flamethrower) chemistry. The engineers thought they could work around the "thermal event" issue, top execs wisely decided not to bet the company on it.

The NiMH battery pack and motors will see incremental improvements, but I expect the big gains to come in the power electronics and reduction/elimination of active cooling. The statement about highway mileage is intruiging -- not clear if "future hybrids" referred to the '09 Prius or something further down the line. It's not an easy goal based on current HSD design, but then again he seemed to be talking about the Japanese market. Highway driving there is different than in the US.

Toyota have wisely decided not to get on the lemming like LiIon bandwagon with everyone else - demand for Li is outstripping supply today for max 96Wh batteries, what do you think will happen when each car manufacturer wants 1M+ multi kWh batteries per year - just for starters? When the first PHEVs hit the showrooms - demand will go through the roof.

Were they really planning to use Lithium Cobalt Oxide? As if the safety issues were not bad enough, Cobalt is also a scarce metal - hopelessly inadequate for mass EV battery production.

Unfortunately Toyota are right when they say the batteries are still a problem - only NiMH cuts the mustard for resource availability (at approx current volumes) and durability - even here, we run into Ni supply problems at tens of millions of kWh batteries. At the moment, its the only battery that can expand production and they know wil last a reasonable vehicle life (Zebra not suitable unfortunately for PHEV).

Does this Cobasys patent 10Ah limit on NiMH for propulsion purposes still apply / being enforced? Is that why Nilar only ship 9Ah units?

The Prius does not sell in Europe because we focus on fuel economy here not other pollutants - so we get the same or better fuel economy with diesel here as a Prius and diesel is generally cheaper per litre than petrol. So it makes no sense from that perspective to get a Prius.

VW's saying their new diesel Jetta coming to the U.S. by next summer, will get mid-40s in the city w/ automatic (DSG)

At a price premium of only $2,000 above the petrol-powered model.

We'll just have to wait a year and see who can deliver on their claims, VW or Toyota (hopefully both)

>I can not see the point, selling Diesel cars to town dwellers

Hopefully gen 3 will improve gas mileage considerably,people are getting 45 mpg from their $25,000 Priuses,it's more economical to pay $15,000 for a Corolla and get 35 mpg.Environmentally you don't have a battery pack to recycle with the Corolla.Plus your friendly neighborhood independent repairman can fix your Corolla for you.