Could somebody publish a list of USABC successful (or not) accomplishments in the last 10 years?

Accomplishments on the part of the USABC itself or the companies they fund?

Presumably this is a battery pack for entry level non-Volt PHEVs rated for 10mile all-electric range. Looks like "All-Electric" will become a new mileage standard for hybrids.

$4.5m from USABC, who else is paying?

AES:

Just the projects (partly or fully) financed by USABC would do.

I have to admit that I really want to buy a Chevy Volt with the ER-EV tech that would get me 40 mpc., but if GM doesn't start to show reasonable progress this year, i.e. mules on the road, statements about sales price being below $30,000 including a battery pack guaranteed for 7 years or more, I just might be tempted to buy a PHEV with a range of 10 miles, sooner rather than waiting for GM's offering later.
Head-bolt heater plug-ins are common where I grew up, I think they will be increasingly common in warmer climes in the years to come. A 10 mile range is not great, but with plug-ins getting more common, a 10 mile range becomes a 10 mile radius pretty quickly.
My short term wish list is a PHEV Ford Escape with 10 mpc capability at at least 45 mph. What is that, a 4 kW/h battery with a discharge pattern of 80% to 30% to increase the battery life? Maybe 5 kW/h? A slightly bigger battery and motor than todays Escape Hybrid, with a smaller engine and gas tank... I wish I could buy it today.

ziv:

Many people would buy a PHEV-10 if the price is reasonable. Even more would buy it if it was easily upgradable to PHEV-20 or PHEV-30 or PHEV-40 (or more) as battery packs become smaller and cheaper.

Basically, buyers should have the choice with regards to the size of the battery pack they can afford. At about $1K/Kwh, the battery pack can quickly double the price of a vehicle. You could decide to start with a 5Kwh = $5k pack and buy add-ons (one or two more 5Kwh packs) latter, as price drops or as you can afford it.

Technical evolution, mass production and competition will all contribute to lower battery price in the future. Within 5 years, price should drop by 50% or to $500/Kwh. Within 10 years, price should drop by another 50% or to about $250/Kwh.

That being said, I agree with you that we should buy a few million PHEV-10 to get mass production going. The exact brand does not matter much, they will all contribute to batteries mass production and lower cost.

Interesting times ahead for PHEVs and BEVs.

Ziv,
GM is using a few old Malibu to test the components. Check it out:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/11/16/chevy-volt-mules-are-based-on-old-malibu-production-cars-on-sma/

Allen, thanks for the article. That is exactly the thing I want to read sometime this spring, but with pictures of the actual mule tooling around Michigan somewhere with the E-Flex hardware. GM doesn't seem to realize that they are holding an incredibly poor hand when it comes to their product line-up. Other than the Malibu, they don't seem to be working to increase their market share, rather to defend what they have. GM needs the Volt to change the publics perception of them or they will continue to lose share. If the Volt doesn't come out by 2010, it becomes much more likely that Toyota will build a true PHEV10 or PHEV20 which would really take the wind out of GM's sails, even if GM delivers the Volt late in 2011. Toyota is talking about a possible LiIon version of the Prius for later in 2009, if it happens it will only be a PHEV8, but 8 is better than none and it would have all of Toyota's quality advantage. BYD claims they will be delivering a PHEV60 version of their F6 in later 2008, link on Chinese quality below. Saturn is also looking at a 2008 release for their Vue PHEV10, so the PHEV's are starting to look like they will show up soon, just not soon enough for me.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/02/autos/jdpower_on_chinese_cars/index.htm

I did a quick calculation using Enerdel's data and to have 5KW it would take about 588 cells @ 3.6V each for 300VDC. I don't know the cost per cell. However, they do seem to have a very good product. Take a look here for the presentation.
http://enerdel.com/content/view/106/89/ and the main site for more info. http://enerdel.com/mos/Frontpage/

Harvey D writes:

You could decide to start with a 5Kwh = $5k pack and buy add-ons (one or two more 5Kwh packs) latter, as price drops or as you can afford it.

Not quite; there are considerations of specific power to worry about.  The single pack would need to be able to handle 3 times as much power per cell as the triple pack to yield the same acceleration and regeneration performance.  If the battery technology has outrageous capabilities (like AltairNano) this isn't an issue, but if it's near the margin you either lose performance or have to make capacity or cost compromises to work with the single pack.

I think we'd do well to make a standard battery form factor and interface (both for power and internal intelligence) that would work with anything from Firefly Energy's lead-acid to NiMH to Li-ion.  A car could use batteries of several different technologies depending on the desired price and capabilities.  So long as the power capacity of the battery was sufficient, buyers could trade off energy capacity (or cycle life, or anything else) against price.

There are several problems...

1 even the best battery SUSYEM weighs ALOT. Si much so that in order to make the car capable of holding more packs you would need the beef up the entire car and thus add alot of car weight. And every pack would drop milage and performance and make breaking take longer.

To give you an idea of the problem.. a volt ypgraded to the same range as the fuel cell version via batteries.. woild weigh over 3 tons AND get poor milage to boot.

The other problem is cost.. even in 10 years we are dealing with 2500 just for 40 milea and 25000 or more to creep near 300 miles.

Finaly there is a point where the milage cost from the battery weight is greater then just using a range extender and a smaller pack. This is specialy trie when you think about the fact that most times people only need to go over x miles.. a few times a year but they would need to carry the bigger pack all the time.

The point is the first serial PHEV (Volt) will have plenty of range provided you feed it a few gallons of liquid hydrocarbon (or H2). Commuters with short range commutes will flock to this car and its AER. Longer range drivers will have to fuel up while waiting for better batteries. Either way, liquid fuel consumption drops dramatically for those who drive the shortest range.

Oh yeah, and this should make big green happy(er).

Hello,

Several companies are promoting LiFeP04 12V car batteries to reduce fuel consumption up to 30%.

They claim the voltage is more constant which provides better spark, and that load is reduced on the alternator.

Has there been any independent testing of this?

One neat thing is the cycling life is much higher that SLA. And they work well at very low discharge.

These batteries are the new battery of choice for electric bicycles.

E-P:

I assumed that future battery packs will provide ample quick charge and discharge capabilities to supply enough torque for decent accelleration and acceptable regeneration performance.

Of course, lower usable energy storage capacity would mean less distance in electric mode.

To increase the electric mode distance you may reduce the vehicle weight, tire resistance, drag etc or increase the battery pack storage capacity. Adding a second pack in parallel (to double the electric only distance) should not represent a major problem. Trucks have been doing that for decades to handle cold weather operations and power hungry accessories.

I assumed that future battery packs will provide ample quick charge and discharge capabilities to supply enough torque for decent accelleration and acceptable regeneration performance.

You fail to ask what tradeoffs would be required to get there.

If the average hybrid car requires X kilowatts of power for acceleration and regenerative braking, achieving that with one pack requires X kW/pack while achieving it with 3 requires X/3 kW/pack.  Obviously, the pack designed for X/3 kW has less stringent requirements for its connections, cooling, and other considerations; it can either be cheaper for the same energy storage or have greater storage for the same cost.

Hybrid cars cost enough without adding expensive tradeoffs.

E-P:

How many hundred HP did the early ICE vehicles have? Didn't they go thru 2 cyls, 4 cyls, 6 cyls and 8 cyls etc?

Didn't it take many years to develop the ICE commercial cars to produce 100+ HP and 100+ mph.

Why would we want the first generation PHEVs and BEVs to have 400 HP, and go 200 mph for 300+ miles.

Shouldn't a progressive approach start (in 2009??)with PHEV-10 to 20 (Km) and double every few years, as batteries become better and cheaper.

About a decade from now, we will certainly have affordable PHEV-100+ (Km) and BEVs with 300 Km to 500 Km range on a single quick charge. I bet you that buyers will be able to select the number and/or the size of the battery packs on aboard as you can select the ICE size today.

There's so much wrong with your implied argument that I have a hard time finding a place to start.  Suffice it to say that today's hybrids have to compete with today's ICEVs and deliver gains with modern driving cycles and styles; practices of 80 years ago are simply irrelevant.

E-P:

Historically, first generation new technology has always been too heavy, lower powered, less efficient and rather costly. This will also be true of new ESSUs, PHEVs, and BEVs.

The following versions will certainly be more powerful, lighter, perform better and cost less.

Knowing that, why would anybody want to own and pay (dearly) for a PHEV-200 (Km) in 2009? This would be OK if you have the extra $50K for the large ESSU. However, an upgradable/scalable PHEV-20 (Km) would make much more sense for most people.

As pocket books come in different sizes, why couldn't we select the ESSU size we can afford? At about $1K/Kwh most people will have a difficult time to buy more than 10 KWh unless tax credits become more generous.

We all know that the difficulty with affordable mass produced PHEVs and BEVs is the size, performance and cost of the ESSU. Powerful electric motors + control units + chargers are already there and are highly efficient.

Upgradable, scalable, and/or exchangable, ESSU's may be a way to accellerate PHEVs and BEVs introduction during the following decade.

By 2020/25, when the price of 50-75 KWh quick charge ESSU's reach $250/KWh or less, this may no longer be open for discussion.

I, for one, would buy my first PHEV with a 5KWh or 10KWh ESSU if I could double/triple it after 3 - 4 years or when the price is lower.

Here is an example: Some 5 years ago I paid $60 for an extra rechargeable 850 mAmp battery for a Canon Digicam. There years latter I bought two compatible replacement 1250 mAmp rechargeable batteries @ $7.5 each. That's 50% more energy storage at 1/8 the cost. Let's hope that similar price drops will happen when ESSUs for PHEVs and BEVs are mass produced.

I've probably not convinced you, but I'm still willing to bet that many first generation PHEVs will come with optional size (scalable) ESSUs. (5 KWh, 10 KWh, 15 and 20 KWh will be the most popular sizes) for the first 5 years.

first generation new technology has always been too heavy, lower powered, less efficient and rather costly.

We're up to the third or fourth generation now, depending what you count.  Altair Nano, A123Systems, even Firefly Energy can supply batteries which put ICE powertrains to shame.  Efficiency was far higher as of the Honda Insight.  Right now costs are still high, but if you include all the costs of obtaining oil, some are already cheaper than the fuel displaced.

why couldn't we select the ESSU size we can afford?

A modular ESSU doesn't make engineering sense because of the tradeoffs it forces.  It makes much more sense to have a set of standard ESSU package sizes and power ratings, and change battery technology as appropriate for the task and market conditions.  The cheap end could use spiral-wound AGM lead-acid, the high end some kind of lithium ion, and Firefly Energy's stuff in between.  So long as the batteries can handle the same amount of power, the tradeoffs are in range and lifespan vs. cost; as all units would be full size, there would be no compromises in energy capacity or lifespan to achieve a sufficient power rating in a fractional-sized unit.

E_P:

I partially agree with you. However....

Half to a full dozen different battery packs may be available for future PHEVs and BEVs.
Better ESSUs will come out every 5-7 years. Car manufacturers will have to adapt.

Higher capacity ESSUs do not necessarily mean bigger motors and control circuits. Current limiters exist and are very cheap. More energy stored in the on-board ESSU could mean more e-mode distance, not necessarily more speed or Hummer style monster vehicles.

However, will ESSUs be easily exchangeable? Different physical sizes, discharge and charge rates, ventilation requirements, connectors etc may restrict exchangeability, specially during the first mass produced PHEVs/BEVs generation.

It took computer and TV manufacturers 20+ years to come up with universal (USB) and (HDMI) connectors. Will car manufacurers do better?

I still hope that PHEV/BEV manufacturers will give buyers the choice, to select the size of the on-board ESSU, much the same way as you have the choice with current ICE vehicles (4-cyl, 6-cyl, 8-cyl, gasoline or diesel etc). It is a case of plain common sense, not a technical challenge.

Higher capacity ESSUs do not necessarily mean bigger motors and control circuits.

No, you miss the point.  A given level of performance means an ESSU of a certain power rating, regardless of its energy storage capacity; achieving this power is likely to compromise storage or lifespan.  If you double or triple-up the ESSUs, you have excess power handling capacity but you do not un-do the compromises made previously.