Oh, oh...my governor, Christine Gregoire is one of the lead governors for alternative fuels. I like alternative fuels except for bio-fuels. There are way too many disadvantages to bio-fuels, like pitting hungry engines against hungry poor people in the light of rising food prices from land uses for bio-fuels.

Bio-fuels must be split off from alternative fuels.

As a comment to "There are way too many disadvantages to bio-fuels, like pitting hungry engines against hungry poor people in the light of rising food prices from land uses for bio-fuels.

Bio-fuels must be split off from alternative fuels."

In actuality if we use waste products of corn stalks, wood chips and garbage, to produce biofuels, that is technology worth studying. I feel that a heterogeneous evergy portfolio will be the way of our future. So before making comments, please read all the studies on algae based biodiesels etc." You must define what you mean by Biofuel and that means talking about its ultimate source, Although I do agree with the fact that growing corn, soybeans just to feed engines is crazy and illogical.

Looks good providing that they've worked out what effects this will have on their state's water resources and how this will be managed between the states.

There's not much mention of efficiency. That should be the first step. Produce more efficient vehicles and you'll need less of all types of fuel.

If you sell 1 million more efficient vehicles per year for 10 years you have 10 million more efficient vehicles out of 140 million vehicles on the road.

Efficiency is a good long term policy, but not one that will make short term gains. Behavior is a short term gain. There is driving less, combining trips, walking, biking and lots of other ways to reduce fuel consumption.

State-specific goal bullet points 4,5,7 each address efficiency. As noted by sjc, along with alternate driving habits will have a large impact on fuel consumption. Some of us walk or ride bikes to work regularly - leaving the ICE in the parking lot. These confabs help raise political awareness. I would like to see an E85 infrastructure mandated (cellulosic feedstock).

Ethanol is supposed to be a "transitional" biofuel. It has its own pollution problems, transportation problems, storage problems, and most of today's 140 million cars are not designed for more than E10.

So, Ethanol will hit a wall, and we will have to look to alternatives such as Butanol. Cellulosic Butanol is a further ways out, but it seems there is some real value to expediting butanol to leap frog ethanol. Khosla has suggested in the past that he's investing in traditional ethanol plants on the assumption that they can be converted to butanol when it's ready. Does anybody think he's making sense, or perhaps just taking advantage of the tax incentives for ethanol?

Ethanol is supposed to be a "transitional" biofuel. It has its own pollution problems, transportation problems, storage problems, and most of today's 140 million cars are not designed for more than E10.

So, Ethanol will hit a wall, and we will have to look to alternatives such as Butanol. Cellulosic Butanol is a further ways out, but it seems there is some real value to expediting butanol to leap frog ethanol. Khosla has suggested in the past that he's investing in traditional ethanol plants on the assumption that they can be converted to butanol when it's ready. Does anybody think he's making sense, or perhaps just taking advantage of the tax incentives for ethanol?

sjc,

Your example is too simplistic. Currently 60% of cars on the road (US) are less than 10 years old. If car makers would make every car just a little more fuel efficient each year the effects would be significant. If they actually produced the cars like the Volt or 99mpg Prius, the effect would be dramatic in a relatively short time. Current Prius and TDI owners would move up the new hyper-milers which would create an large aftermarket for their 45+ cars. This would allow the current 25-30mpg owners to move up also. It would have a doubling effect and consumption would drop quickly. Yes some people would drive farther just because they can, but that would only reduce the decrease slightly.

My point is that you will not replace the older 40% with fuel efficient cars in one year. If there are 15 million vehicles sold each year, how many of those will be fuel efficient enough to make a big difference?

Let's say 1.5 million vehicles sold each year get more than 40 mpg and after 10 years you have 15 million vehicles, or 10% of the cars on the road getting more than 40 mpg.

When 40% of 140 million vehicle is 56 million older vehicles that need to be replaced, it will take a while. After 10 years we may have 150 million vehicle on the road.

CAFE standards may help in the longer term, but the size of the problem says that we will need more than one solution implemented simultaneously to get there sooner.

Gentlemen & Ladies

Hydrogen & Oxygen gas are compressed in water.

You can decompress them for motor fuel with simple electrolisis.

There are cars running, right now, using hydrogen as a fule suppliment to gasoline, supplied by a bottle of water under their hood, with electrodes connected to the ignition and a ground, with a tube convering the fuel to the air intake of the motor.

Some cars run on hydrogen & oxygen without the gasoline. That requires a slightly more complicated
generation set-up required to produce a greater volume of hydrogen. But the more efficient hydrogen generator is still verry simple and easy make.

Ok Wells, now you're just spamming. This scheme was featured on Myth-busters, and it was BUSTED!

I can not wait for the thermodynamics people to weigh in on this one...

Electrolysis is pretty inefficient on a small scale. Let's say you could do it at 50% efficiency. Now your alternator is 80% efficient and the engine driving it is 30% efficient. You start to see that the hydrogen that you got from the water cost quite a bit.

@ Leo ..
Why not envision a wind turbine on the car roof to generate electricity, then have the electric power split Hydrogen gas from water, then burn the Hydrogen to move the car thus providing the wind, and also capture water from the tailpipe so the system is self contained?

What!!! ? It wouldn't work due to energy conversion losses? Shame really, it was almost a perfect zero fuel car.

Lets make a new auto design with magnets on the bumper so the car ahead pulls us along.

Circular reasoning works better than circular energy conversions.

Magnetic propulsion is really out there somewhere. Your right on. Only I don't know beans about it...I think that's what makes space ships from another planet fly.

LET'S RUN OUR CARS ON WATER

WE SHOULD ALL MOVE TO FLORIDA WHERE WE CAN FILL OUT TANKS WITH SEA WATER. PUT BIGGER ALTERNATORS ON OUR CARS AND MAKE HYDROGEN RIGHT IN OUR OWN CAR FOR MOTOR FUEL, USING ELECTRIODES TO DECOMPRESS THE WATER INTO HYDROGEN AND OXYGEN AND BURN THEM BOTH AS MOTOR FUEL.

If you look at Leo's email link you are directed to:

http://water-fuel-online.com/

Leo, it is a no-no to promote your products or other people's products on here...gooodbye!

Look at china the are making the car manufatures to have 36mpg this year yet we want it in 2020. The fuel source of the future will be hydrogen look at stan meyers device, berdini free energy devises, nicole tesla 1943 electric car. Also check out scalar physics the way to understand to get more power out of some thing then you put in it.
Some websites to check out for alternitive energy are www.knowledgeproductions.com, www.water4gas.com, www.otherpower.com,http://www.icehouse.net/john1/index11.html
before we know it well have carbon trading and it will cost more

I did not see any mention of plug in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV). I see millions of state dollars going to liquid fuel alternatives and very little to battery development or PHEV development.

I think that they want to get the most in the shortest time. Batteries have been private sector and DOE, so they have that covered. Alternate fuels are something that they can make happen in their states soon. Changing laws to have more NG vehicles is one way. Tax incentives for biofuel production within the state is another.