« USDA, DOE to Invest Up to $18.4M for Biomass Research, Development and Demonstration Projects; Biofuels, Chemicals, Heat and Power | Main | Toyota Introduces Production Version of iQ City Car, Small SUV Concept at Geneva Show »
GM Announces Next-Generation GM Hybrid System with Hitachi Li-Ion Pack; Plans Global Deployment
4 March 2008
General Motors Chairman Rick Wagoner announced at the Geneva Motor Show today that GM will introduce into production a second-generation version of the GM Hybrid System equipped with a lithium-ion battery system from Hitachi Vehicle Energy Ltd (HVE), a subsidiary of Tokyo-based Hitachi Ltd.
The Li-ion pack will help make the next-generation GM Hybrid System—the mild hybrid belt-alternator-starter system applied in the Saturn Vue; Saturn Aura; Chevrolet Malibu; and Buick LaCrosse Eco-Hybrid in China (earlier post)—nearly three times more powerful than the system it replaces. Overall fuel economy improvements for cars and trucks using the system are expected to be up to 20%, depending on engine and vehicle application.
By building on this system, Wagoner said, GM will be able to make the GM Hybrid System more cost-effective and expand its application in GM’s global vehicle portfolio.
In order to have a real impact in reducing oil consumption, oil imports, and CO2 emissions, advanced technologies must be affordable enough to drive high-volume applications. We plan to roll out this next-generation hybrid technology globally, across our brands and regions, starting in 2010 in North America, and we expect that volumes will eventually exceed 100,000 units annually.
—Rick Wagoner
The next-generation GM Hybrid System will complement GM’s Two-Mode Hybrid system as part of the company’s advanced powertrain portfolio. The Two-Mode Hybrid system debuted in 2007 in the Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon, and will be offered this year in the Cadillac Escalade full-size SUV and the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra full-size pickups. The first front-wheel-drive application of the Two-Mode Hybrid system will debut in the 2009 Saturn Vue Green Line.
The increased power from the lithium-ion battery will allow the next-generation GM Hybrid System to be used in a wide range of global powertrains, including naturally aspirated engines, new high-efficiency turbocharged engines, bio-fuel engines and diesels.
This technology is showcased in the Saab 9-X BioPower Hybrid concept car, which made its debuted at the Geneva Motor Show. The Saab concept is capable of 117 g CO2/km, or projected fuel consumption of 4.9 l/100 km (48 mpg) when running on gasoline over the combined cycle. (Earlier post.)
Features supported by the next-generation GM Hybrid System include:
Turning the engine off at idle;
Offering brief electric-only propulsion;
Using a more powerful electric motor to enhance engine efficiency;
Extending fuel cutoff during deceleration;
Extending regenerative braking to recapture more energy;
Performing intelligent hybrid battery charging
For additional energy savings, an advanced six-speed automatic transmission also may be used, depending on the vehicle application.
The current GM Hybrid System was introduced in 2006 on the Saturn Vue Green Line SUV. By the end of 2008, GM will offer eight hybrid models in North America and nine worldwide. GM will introduce 16 new hybrid vehicles over the next four years.
Hitachi Vehicle Energy Ltd. Hitachi Vehicle Energy Ltd. was formed in 2004 as a joint venture between Hitachi, Shin-Kobe Electric Machinery Co. Ltd. and Hitachi Maxwell Ltd. to develop, manufacture and market rechargeable lithium-ion batteries for hybrid electric vehicles and other applications.
In January, the partners injected ¥6 billion (US$58 million) to the JV company to strengthen its production and development capabilities. Following the capital increase, capital ratios of Hitachi, Shin-Kobe Electric Machinery and Hitachi Maxell will be 64.9%, 25.1% and 10.0%, respectively.
HVE is working with a layered nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) cathode material and a graphite anode.
Hitachi expects the global market for HEVs to continue expanding from the 410,000 unit level recorded in 2006 to 1.5 million units in 2010. Against this backdrop, Hitachi estimates that demand for HEV lithium-ion batteries will overtake that for the current mainstream nickel metal hydride batteries in 2015.
Hitachi Chemical Co. is expanding its output capacity for graphite materials used in lithium-ion battery anodes by 20%. (Earlier post.)
Hitachi also produces power electronics and motors for application in hybrid and electric vehicles. The company already provides the motor in the first generation GM Hybrid System: a 4kW (mechanical) machine with 5kW generating power, delivering some 60 Nm of motoring torque.
Resources
Juichi Arai, et. al., High-power and High-energy Lithium Secondary Batteries for Electric Vehicles. Hitachi Review, Volume 53 Number 4 November 2004
Juichi Arai, et. al. Development of a high power lithium secondary battery for hybrid electric vehicles. Journal of Power Sources Volume 146, Issues 1-2, 26 August 2005, Pages 788-792
March 4, 2008 in Hybrids | Permalink | Comments (45) | TrackBack (0)
TrackBack
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/22062/26783978
Listed below are links to weblogs that reference GM Announces Next-Generation GM Hybrid System with Hitachi Li-Ion Pack; Plans Global Deployment:
Comments
The 20% gain is presumably relative to the conventional base model with a naturally aspirated V6 and a five-speed slushbox.
The mild hybrid system alone will not deliver gains that high. It must be combined with engine downsizing, i.e. lopping off a couple of cylinders (V6 to I4 w/ balancing shafts) and adding a turbo, preferably homogenous GDI as well. Adding gears to the transmission is also desirable. The electric motor can mask turbo lag and provide transient boost torque at low RPM such that the entire system can deliver the same performance characteristics as the one in the base vehicle.
Posted by: Rafael Seidl | Mar 4, 2008 11:33:50 AM
it wasnt that long ago that the Detroit auto manufacturers went to Bush and asked for relief on all the new mileage requirements because they were impossible to meet. He told them to stuff it. Guess they lied to him about impossibilities, although they are way behind the times on understanding what they should be doing.
Posted by: fred | Mar 4, 2008 12:27:12 PM
GM bashers, start your engines!!!!
Posted by: Mark A | Mar 4, 2008 12:27:46 PM
Adding power and torque to a belt-driven starter-alternator is a dumb idea. It ought to be crank-mounted to maximize the benefit of all that torque available from the e-machine. All that talk about 'accelerative power' and 'regenerative braking' is more marketing than anything effective. This is like throwing good money after bad. I just don't see how this is significantly superior to what they already have out there in the Saturn VUE mild-hybrid system.
Posted by: CarNut | Mar 4, 2008 12:32:25 PM
Rafael - the 20% is also a numbers game. The comparison is between a V6+Auto trans (as base) with torque converter and an I-4 with auto trans and torque converter, with the vehicle having low rolling resistance tires, aero treatments and all that stuff. So, you are absolutely correct. The fuel economy improvement from the hybrid system alone is not more than 10%. The same was the case also for the hybrid Civic, but that's how the game is being played.
Posted by: CarNut | Mar 4, 2008 12:35:03 PM
Offering brief electric-only propulsion
That line is key, and I suspect will offer greatly increased gas mileage on the road side.
In stop and go traffic, the ability to stop, then roll at 3 mph for 60 feet then stop without ever turning the engine on is a great gas saver.
At a stop light, the ability to roll forward 30 - 80 feet as people make right hand turns is a great gas saver.
The article did not make it clear if there was a 20% savings over a non-hybrid model or over the existing mild hybrid. I took it to mean that it was a 20% savings in gas over the existing hybrid.
-Michael
Posted by: Michael McMillan | Mar 4, 2008 12:45:42 PM
With this system I can see them closing the valves, and to roll forward just making the engine go around without starting. This is not as efficient, but it means that they don't have to add the expense and complexity of an additional clutch or speed and gear matching system.
-Michael
Posted by: Michael McMillan | Mar 4, 2008 12:46:34 PM
Rafael & CarNut:
It's easy to make numbers say what you want when you change the reference base at will.
GM is to produce a second version of their pre-generation mild-hybrid. This is not much of an effort. A small e for a mini effort?
However, the Saab 9-X seems to be much more but is just another concept vehicle. It may, most likely, never be produced.
GM has a very long way to go. Meanwhile, their local sales are dropping rapidly. It will take much more to turn the trend around. How can a large organisation get that far behind?
Posted by: Harvey D | Mar 4, 2008 12:52:38 PM
Harvey:
Because large organizations have a great deal of institutional inertia. They also have those massive legacy costs (pensions, health care) for hundreds of thousands of retired workers. Their labor costs thus eat into the R&D money that would otherwise go into new products. But then, we've been over that ground before.
Posted by: Cervus | Mar 4, 2008 1:00:31 PM
Complexity and high efficiency come at a premium. That rule sure applies to hybrids, heck even diesel connoisseurs can see that. Therefore, these GM next-gen hybrids being submitted as a lower cost variation, that give several more mpg's to almost any vehicle platform, is a "good thing". A larger demographic will be served and offered a more fuel efficient and affordable choice than they had before. I welcome them, and hope and anticipate better things yet to come.
Posted by: Schmeltz | Mar 4, 2008 1:17:37 PM
I think you guys are underestimating the importance of this. Considering the existing mild hybrid system GM currently makes, it seems more than reasonable that a 20% increase in fuel economy can be achieved, and over 100,000 for just this one type of hybrid allows them to get significant economies of scale, and mild-hybrids are significantly cheaper anyway.
Considering this is comming along with the introduction of the two-mode hybrid and the volt (wich is essentially the first mass produced electric car, as the electric is the only thing providing power to the wheels, which allows you to put whatever engine you want, even a fuel cell, and allow them to opperate always at their peak efficency), GM is really putting some signficant effort into hybrids. They're really the only ones after toyota who have put a signficant effort into hybrids.
Posted by: Dan A | Mar 4, 2008 2:02:52 PM
GM is evil. They should be nationalized and the executives beheaded.
Posted by: be | Mar 4, 2008 2:15:34 PM
Bob Lutz wrote a whole page in "Newsweek" a couple
of weeks back, about how he was convinced that the future
of the car industry lay with driving the wheels with electric
motors , and not with the ICE . what with this post and the fact
that GM are spending 690 million on a new diesel engine
plant , it makes me wonder, does Bob still work for GM !
Posted by: andrew rose | Mar 4, 2008 2:37:05 PM
Considering it has been 10 years after the debut of the Prius and Insight, I am amazed that this is all they have. Lithium batteries is not going to make all that much difference with BAS. You can only make a belt drive motor do just so much and that is it. The fact that they have the two mode only in large SUVs and trucks is pretty bad. They need to light a fire under it between now and 2010, or get left in the dust.
Posted by: sjc | Mar 4, 2008 2:48:10 PM
Is this GM's Plan A? I hope they have a Plan B.
Posted by: Mick | Mar 4, 2008 4:37:25 PM
I completely agree with Dan. Where does this idea that the BAS alone cannot deliver a 20% gain? The current system already does. Unless the EPA is lying, a FWD Saturn Vue Hybrid w/ 4spd auto delivers 25/32 (28.5 combined), while the non-hybrid equivalent delivers 19/26 (22.5 combined). That is a 26%+ improvement. Yeah, the BAS in the Malibu/Aura produces a much smaller percentage improvement, but that is consistent with most hybrids - they provide a smaller improvement on inherently fuel efficient vehicles.
My point is, if the current generation BAS can produce a 26% improvement in an application, I see no reason a system with 3x the power could not hit that 20% mark GM is quoting.
Posted by: Angelo | Mar 4, 2008 5:13:30 PM
SJC:
The volt's innitial production run will be 60,000 per year, which is 12 times the innitial production run of the Prius. Honda stopped producing the Insight and hybrid Accord. Also, the return on investment for a hybrid drivetrain on an SUV or truck are better than those for small cars, and the majority of gasoline consumption in the US is from trucks/SUVs. Given all that, how do you figure GM's not taking this seriously
Posted by: Dan A | Mar 4, 2008 5:17:59 PM
Mick, SJC, seriously? What do you call the 2-mode system, the EV (Volt) and the fuel cell projects they have? Did you really miss those? Hell, the 2-mode was referred to in this article! It's like people cannot wait to bash GM, no matter how absurd they ultimately sound.
Posted by: Angelo | Mar 4, 2008 5:20:12 PM
It remains to be seen how many Volts will be produced, if any. The number of large hybrid SUVs sold this year will be few. The number of BAS cars sold so far are few. The numbers speak for themselves and the marketing press releases seem to go on forever.
Posted by: sjc | Mar 4, 2008 6:46:55 PM
One more empty promise from GM, 20% improvment compared to existing model will bring the saturn aura from 25 to 30MPG even consider the today saturn green aura mild hybrid model improvment from 27MPG to 32MPG. The Toyota camry hyrid today return 34MPG and they don't need a Li-ion battery to get that.
The truth is that GM will NEVER make fuel efficiency car, not only because they are not good at doing it but also because they don't care.
Look at this the Saturn Astra that they are introducing now return 32MPG on highway and that's a small car with 1.8MPG. My 94 Honda accord get the same for bigger size.
Shame on GM
Posted by: Treehugger | Mar 4, 2008 7:40:30 PM
@Angelo
Fuel cells will prove to be a non starter for passenger sedans. Ballard Power systems who've been working to supply the automobile industry for what seems like forever dumped their passenger vehicle business a few months ago to concentrate on transit vehicle powertrains, so much for fuel cells being a viable candidate in the short/medium term.
Regarding these BAS systems. Similar to Honda's IMA, Integrated Motor Assist, was introduced first with the Civic and then with the Accord. Honda and its customers, who, unwittingly, were the guinea pigs for the major field testing found the system not to provide the benefits expected particularly in the colder climes and the Honda Accord hybrid ran only for two model years before being discontinued after the 2007 year. It's a fact, any uninsulated battery box will suffer from 'cold soak' when left outside in the open for long enough in the snow belt and leave the car as a Hybrid in name only. The Panasonic Battery site displays the temperature/power curve for the NiMH battery chemistry showing the drop off at -10 deg C, it's brutal. The Prius is affected to a much lesser degree since its modus operandi is to run the ICE, which is only partially coupled to the wheels, at the lowest possible speed at all times. By supplying power at almost the lowest engine speeds but at commensurately higher torques, before the onset of lugging, the system is able to minimise the effect of friction per engine revolution. This is full hybrid system is also implemented in the Ford Escape I should mention.
I believe disappointment in the mileage from the mild hybrids not living up to expectations was damaging to Honda's future prospects of selling to these owners later on so they quietly took the HAH off the market. That's my opinion anyway. In any event I had been posting about why this IMA was not a particularly good system from the electrical engineering perspective at least three years before on the Honda Civic Hybrid board. Anyway you'll see the arguments Toyolla2 was advancing in the Edmunds board at the time if you're interested. After I made the case to one owner he managed to have all his posts removed from the board which kind of killed the thread. I didn't think he would take it so badly. I lay off those hatchet jobs today. Although sometimes it takes an AXE to get peoples attention.
Accusations of GM bashing, well don't look at me. I want GM to succeed. Heck in my immediate area a major supplier to the Big three just closed shop let 800 people go. Two years ago there were 2000 people working there. And that was just one of several companies that have had major layoffs here in the past year. Despite taking hundreds of millions of dollars in inducements from our government to set up shop here in the first place.
So I want to see GM retain its customer base particularly from those Asian companies that are allowed to ship cars in by the boatload. It has to be making the right decisions . Sound decisions. This BAS idea is just terrible. It continues to perpetuate the large gasoline engine with equally large and complicated stepped transmissions for channeling power to the wheels, irregardless of the fact that alternatively controlling electrical power instead of mechanical poer is a comparitively simple matter. Control of a hundred kilowatts can fit inside a shoe box and connect to an induction motor on the transaxle differential. Job done.
The mechanical method requires variable rpms with variable torque and those torque reactions have to be nursed all the way from the engine block mountings to the transaxle supports with special considerations all the way through to prevent sending powerful vibrations into the body frame. A seies hybrid setup gets you away from all that. Then again there would be no DSG with its own ECU which no transmission shop will understand when you take it there. Here's a scenario - It could be a mechanical problem or it could be an electronic sensor problem with the DSG. How about we replace the whole thing Sir that way we'll be sure. Er... would you mind if we just run your plastic now Sir it's not going to be cheap and we don't want to have to hang on to your car do we Sir! Who wants that outside warranty ?
In the industrial setting involving the machines I helped design we sometimes used 200Hp drivelines. But even if it was only 60Hp the procedure was standard. Connect the motor to the controller, download parameters. Tune. Test. Job done.
But in the auto industry -with these announcements- you would think they were launching the damn space shuttle.
T2
Posted by: T2 | Mar 4, 2008 8:10:43 PM
Dan A,
GM says first year Volt will be 10,000 units.
Posted by: doggydogworld | Mar 4, 2008 9:02:46 PM
Somehow the announcement lacks the impact that would get me excited. They need to get more weight reduction ideas going to have a more attractive offering. A hybrid should be smaller, lighter, more efficient, and more reliable. The age of the lumbering giant is over.
Posted by: Lulu | Mar 4, 2008 9:57:26 PM
Lulu
You are right but unfortunately it seems that GM is committed to keep his business as usual and his head in the sand like if the constantly increase of gas price was not a signal strong enough flashing "the end of cheap oil is over" no, instead they will go to the congress or the white house to cry for more ethanol to fill their dinosaur as they become ever bigger and heavier before going extinct. GM has no plan to make fuel efficient car, and instead of working at developping efficient cars they hide their suicidal policy behind a screen of smoke of concepts or "revolutionnary technologies" life fuel cell or Volts that they will never happen. America needs cars with better than 40MPG at less than 20K$ right now. After 3 straight years of increasing gas price they still have none, when Honda and Toyota have.
All the economists are baffled now by the oil staying at 100$/barrel, they look for a good reasons, speeculator, weak US$, blablabla, they fail to admit the truth: "the age of chip oil is over" and the production can't keep up with the demand and we will have to learn how to live with that, like it or not. The only solution on the short/medium term is : fuel efficiency, that's it, if the big 3 think they will repeat what they did in the end 80s then they won't survive. My bet is that Chrysler will not survive the incoming oil crisis, but that's only my bet. GM and Ford can survive but they will suffer the hell.
Posted by: Treehugger | Mar 4, 2008 10:22:58 PM
Doggywood:
I've read 60,000 from Bloomberg News, but also 10,000 from an automotive blog which was more recent. Even still, the Toyota only produced 5000 priusus in it's first year, and the volt is easily as revolutionary.
Also the idea that mild hybrids just aren't "serious" hybrids is a pretty dumb idea--it's comparing apples to oranges. One is a highly expensive, complicated drivetrain, which gives a large improvment in mileage. The other is a relatively simple, relatively cheap drivetrain, which provides a much more modest increase in mileage. I haven't crunched the numbers, but it's certainly possible the mild hybrid can give you a better return on investment.
Also, while the innitial production of the two-mode hybrid will be 10,000 per year, that's only on two different models. It's going to be available on three more models by the end of the year. I'd bet that they're going to increase that production some time in the future, similar to what they did with the BAS.
Every time GM does something, you get people like Treehugger and Lulu that'll either say that they're not doing enough, or that they're not actually serious enough. If Toyota on the other hand does something, it's the best thing since sliced bread.
Posted by: Dan A | Mar 4, 2008 10:45:14 PM
Dan A
How many cars with better than 40MPG GM sell today ? answer : zero
How many cars with better than 35MPG GM sell today ?
answer : zero
How many carGM have in the best mileage sold in US
answer : zero.
Dont get me wrong I would love to see GM to be back in the race of innovation and efficiency but so far they are just loosing it. And also I am not against the idea of mild hybrid which could be a nice option when coupled to an efficient engine could give something quite efficient, I am even quite convinced that with the improvment of ICE using variable compression ratio and direct injection then you no longer need a full hybrid.
But for GM. "hybrid" is just a marketing word to surf on the green wave, absolutely not a way acheive better fuel efficiency
Posted by: Treehugger | Mar 4, 2008 11:25:50 PM
GM is and has been capable of doing great things, but has and is still being run by mindless marketing bean counters. It is a shame and it must drive the engineers crazy.
Posted by: sjc | Mar 4, 2008 11:48:26 PM
It'll be interesting to see how this product and the Volt are received by the market. I suspect that when people see their neighbors driving day in day out 40 mile all-electric no gas expenses - they may give greater thought to spending (financing) the extra $5k (after tax credits)for a Volt.
Low Fuel Consumption Envy LFCE, will drive many consumers to downsize their vehicle purchases. The tax credits will further stimulate that appetite. And in the following years 2010-2020, the cost per kWh storage will drop significantly as worldwide volume goes up.
On the other hand the working truck guys claim to need the big iron so GM, Ford and Toyota (Tacoma 5450lbs) offer it. Maybe if people weren't convinced of a need to haul their "stuff" around so much - demand for big juice SUVs and trucks would decline. When I need to haul I call the friend with a truck; if he's busy rent it for $25 per day.
Posted by: gr | Mar 5, 2008 12:19:47 AM
Cobalt oxide electrode!! Nooooo.......!!
Posted by: clett | Mar 5, 2008 2:21:30 AM
This is a makeshift attempt at shoehorning some "green" into gas guzzlers that aren't green at all.
We see "hybrid" when it is only a run on starting motor, and lithium batteries used despite the pack being too small to make a serious difference.
Bottom line ... this is a system for "pretenders" who want to claim green without actually being green.
Posted by: John Taylor | Mar 5, 2008 3:42:59 AM
I don't understand why people are bashing this. I drive 35 miles a day and spend 32 of it at 55mph. A full hybrid would have no advantage over a mild hybrid for me but it would cost 2-4000 dollars more. Not to mention everyone keeps talking about the cost of batteries going down when production goes up. What better way to drive production up than to put a few high tech batteries in every car made instead of a lot in 2-3% of cars made.
Posted by: Jon | Mar 5, 2008 4:47:06 AM
Jon got it right.
I drive Hondas and a Mazda because I prefer more efficient cars with less bells and whistles. However, the reality is that a lot of americans require those bells and whistles. We can argue all day long if it is right or wrong, yet that is the reality today.
GM makes vehicles for americans who are more demanding. I am fine without power steering, door locks, breaks in my Civic CX that gets 45 mpg. However, GM customers won't even consider such a car. When you consider all the power draws a comfortable american car has then it is clear why they are so much less efficient. Same goes for higher end Hondas (like Acura) and Toyotas. As soon as you add power steering, breaks, etc. you divert some gasoline consumption from driving for other purposes. That is how you drop from 40 mpg (Civic/Corolla) to only 20 mpg (GM beasts). Again, GM makes what americans buy.
Of course, it works both ways. Americans buy what GM makes, so they also need to lead the way and make adjustments. This is such an adjustment. They won't discard all the features that make their cars less efficient because americans still want them. However, they are looking for ways to improve their efficiency.
Chevy Volt is a bold step forward. However, it is clear that it will neither have the volume nor the price for mass market appeal. So they need a short term strategy until Volt and other EV cars increase production *AND* become affordable enough.
This system is a temporary band aid. It gives them a small but significant efficiency improvement at a modest incremental cost (smaller battery, simpler/cheaper parts, etc.)
Another reality check is that the majority of americans cannot afford Volt or any other EV vehicle today or in a short term future. The battery production is too low and their costs today are too high. Therefore, this system is a compromise to put a smaller/cheaper battery in conventional cars hoping that the small price difference will be acceptable to the most of the market. It is much better than not giving such option. Without this system most americans would have only 2 choices, EV or ICE and most would keep going with ICE.
While I am no fan of GM and I am not very impressed with this system, it *WILL* make a big difference if production is increases quickly. Moreover, it will keep GM alive long enough for its EV line to startup.
Who knows, they may at some point build a smaller/cheaper Saturn I4 hybrid that gets to 50 mpg or more.
Posted by: q | Mar 5, 2008 6:46:22 AM
Treehugger,
Interesting question about GM's vehicles...lets include a few others as well:
How many over 40mpg: 1- honda, 1- toyota
How many over 35mpg: 2- honda, 3- toyota, 2- bmw (mini),
Doesn't look like anyone is doing much of anything just yet.
Kia, Hyundai, Ford, Mitsubishi, Mazda, Chrysler, Audi/Volkswagen, Mercedes, Porsche, Nissan, and Subaru all fail to produce a single vehicle with better than 35mpg fuel economy so you should be blasting them as well!
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2008.pdf
Posted by: Patrick | Mar 5, 2008 11:11:39 AM
G:
That's exactly what most people said about the prius 8 years ago. That sure turned out to be wrong.
Treehugger:
There's a good reason why basically all US cars were so dismal for such a long time--because the UAW contracts, GM either broke even or even sold for a loss for most of their car sales. As Jim Kramer (mad money) said, until the new contracts came out, GM was a financing company with a nice truck division. Selling small cars for them just wasn't profitable, so they didn't care how many they sold.
Also, Toyota's vehicles aren't always perfect. The Tacoma is less fuel efficent than comperable GM models, and is the only major pickup that doesn't have a 5 star safety rating.
Posted by: Dan A | Mar 5, 2008 2:23:04 PM
CarNut - I have wondered the same thing. It would have very little or no drag on the engine when not in use and not charging. Why the belt system?
Posted by: Tim Russell | Mar 5, 2008 2:27:54 PM
Patrick
Ok, you are almost right but still
BMW makes the Mini which falls in the 35MPG
Mercedes s about to introduce the Smart for two which falls in the 40MPG.
but you are right it is not only GM that is to blame on this, my main problem with GM is not about what they did so far but rather how they deal with the future, trying to look green but in fact keeping the same strategy. I don't think they are really interested in selling millions of Volts, they just expect that we will produce enough ethanol in the future so that they can still sell their insane truck
Posted by: Treehugger | Mar 5, 2008 7:43:28 PM
Dan
I am not saying that Toyota is perfect and I can understand that when gas price was low that GM was not motivated to sell small cars, but the gas prices have started to soar more than 3 years ago, during that time Toyota put the Prius II, the Camry hybrid, The Higlander Hybrid plus teh Lexus who are true hybrid, Ford release the Escape hybrid with better than 30MPG mileage for an SUV, GM ? nothing that even get 30MPG in combined. The Aveo is very disapoiting in term of mileage. There is millions of american who will have problem to go to their job if gas goes to 4$/Gallons, if this people have to buy an efficient car they have no choice but Toyota and Honda.
Posted by: Treehugger | Mar 5, 2008 7:50:59 PM
The Volt will sell out its initial 10k run in the first year. Toyota produced 5k Prius in first year and took a loss on each one for the next three years. There are now 1 million sold. The Volt pricing with the tax credits should be around $25k - not entry level but with fuel savings over ten years very reasonable.
These companies are taking steps to remove automobiles from the national petroleum demand - it can't happen overnight or on the green party's schedule. But it *WILL* happen.
Posted by: gr | Mar 6, 2008 3:28:20 PM
Tim - this is an attempt to emulate Hybrid Civic architecture with the addition of Li-ion from Hitachi. As someone said, 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery', which holds true here.
As to Hitachi Li-Ion technology, apart from high cost (possibly mitigated by Chinese production plans, if that's what is happening), someone also correctly mentioned metal oxide electrode, which has the negative trade-off of cell voltage (high) versus safety (not the best), as it has graphite in the vicinity and oxides release oxygen when heated, which, when in the vicinity of heat and carbon, will produce more heat, especially as the battery ages.
On the positive side, Hitachi have been working on this technology over a long period of time, and I'm sure GM and Hitachi have worked on this together, and I am aware of Hitachi's other safe, automobile applications of this technology. So, I'm not implying any safety issues, but the fact remains that this LiIon technology is inherently not as safe as a nanophosphate-based technology employed by A123, for example.
No high hopes here for these vehicles doing any better in terms of real-world fuel economy or emissions regardless of what is being quoted except the marketing buzz around Li-Ion and definitely early learning experience from putting Li-Ion in mass production.
I will repeat that this is clearly throwing good money after bad. Downsized GDI engine + Turbo Boost, dual-clutch 6-speed trans and you will have almost the same (or better) fuel economy improvement in a much sportier and desirable package.
Posted by: CarNut | Mar 7, 2008 11:09:01 AM
I have driven the 2007 Saturn Aura Greenline hybrid (there is no 2008 because Cobasys has essentially gone bankrupt and can't get GM the battery packs needed) and today I just got back from a road trip in a Prius.
The differences are unbelieveable. The Aura is essentially the same vehicle as the base 4-cyl Aura, except with the BAS system, the spare tire removed, low rolling resistance tires on alloys, and fewer available options. The BAS-I system in the Aura greenline was effective in starting-stopping the vehicle at stops, and operating the accessories. It was also apparent in operation when de-accelerating. A small needle gauge on the dash would indicate charging and discharging the battery packs. The BAS-I could not, however, actually move the vehicle, either off the mark, or while coasting. It supposedly gives the gas engine some power under heavy acceleration, but I really could not detect any per se. Performance was stymied by the economy-oriented gearing in the 4-speed automatic. Supposedly the Aura gets 32 on the highway.
The Prius, however, was night and day different. It was simply amazing to me to be able to, at times, be able to drive at 45 mph on electric alone. Over the entire trip, of over 450 miles, the computer indicated 44 mpg. We filled the 10 gallon gas tank once. The electronics, the (optional) hands free voice activated features and phone, the wireless 'key' system and the GPS system were all very helpful features.
The upgraded GM BAS-II system would be a welcome upgrade. An inexpensive hybrid system is definitely needed as a option. In fact, it would be best if it would eventually become a standard method of powering all GM sedans -- idle shut off and whatnot. But the vehicles the BAS system now is being shoehorned in to just can't cut it. They are simply too heavy and too large, and, perhaps, too un-aerodynamic for much of a mileage improvement to be noticed on an individual basis. The BAS needs more help to make its benefits noticed. Put it in a smaller, lighter car, or put the Aura/Malibu Greenline on a huge diet. Replace parts with aluminum, or alloys or composits. This hasn't been done. Even if GM needs to subsidize it as did Toyota and Honda, they really should do it to get this program going.
A hybrid buyer, a true green person, yes, would feel good knowing that by upgrading to the mild GM BAS system he and X thousand other people have helped improve overall fleet mileage and collectively saved Y million gallons of gasoline or whatnot. But my Gd! Most people really do want to see something more tangible! A 2-mpg improvement over the base 4-cyl model is just simply laughable! I really can't even fathom how the average driver could even detect a difference during normal mixed driving.
GM has really botched this whole thing, and badly. It needs a 44 mpg car available in the US. Period.
Posted by: PaulF | Mar 7, 2008 7:00:49 PM
Treehugger, how do you figure the GM-BAS system is so similar to Honda's proprietary system? They are really, at least to my estimation, so different in many ways. At least Honda's (newer) system can provide some electric-only propulsion. The belt drive alternator/generator BAS system can't do that.
Posted by: PaulF | Mar 8, 2008 9:08:18 AM
Paul
Thank you for nice report, I know very well the Prius but never experience the Honda Civic Hybrid. I know that the Honda system can't propel the car solely on electric. The fuel economy is a bit behind Prius but still good 43MPG against 46MPG if I trust what you can read around. Well I think that Honda is convinced that Toyota approach is better than their and I know that Honda is working at a new HEV platform that should be competitive for 2009/2010.
And I a quite convinced that GM will have nothing by the time, maybe a heavy Volt that few people will be able to afford and that will not even match the performances of the prius on gas only. My bet is that the Prius III will be ~ 60MPG combined EPA. But that's only my best guess.
Posted by: Treehugger | Mar 8, 2008 6:41:05 PM
There are just a group of posters here who are never happy unless they can complain. The GM (or Ford, or Chrysler or America) bashing is getting very tiresome.
GM appears to have a plan for producing a range of hybrids from mild HEV, to advanced HEV, to E-REV PHEV, in the immediate future of 6 to 18 months.
All this comparative complaints about mileage, never looks at the vehicles produced and sold worldwide by these firms, but simply not sold here.
The mild hybrid system is more primitive, but more inexpensive than the Honda IMA; The 2-mode hybrid system, is much more advanced than Toyota's Synergistic Hybrid drive, and the Volt's E-REV is still a pre-announced product that no one else has announced either, but are surely working on.
The level of such effort is undetermined for others, but GM is obviously making a major investment in the Volt. We can see the investment in engineering development and the investment in component factories and assembly tooling being made.
Grousing about the number of 2-mode hybrid vehicles is just that too. It is freely available and published widely that that the factory in Maryland producing the 2-mode drive trains was erected with a capacity for 400,000 drive trains per year. Furthermore that there are applications being designed for both rear wheel, AWD, and Front wheel drive applications. There are no FWD trucks, so automobiles will receive these drive trains, too. These will have substantial numerical mileage improvements.
GM has both the technical and monetary resources and Bob Lutz is employing them to bring these technologies forward to commercialization. Yet unlike many here, he recognizes that automobile manufacture is a business that succeeds when it provides enough products that meet its customer's needs and also their wallets.
I credit Toyota for its initiative; but frankly I have not seen much progress recently. Merely installing its same hybrid unimproved technology into more and more vehicles, in its lines, in limited numbers, does not really measure innovation.
Honda's philosophical retreat is more disturbing, announcing the abandonment of hybrids and concentrating on petroleum based engines is self-limiting. But that is the benefit of multiple businesses competing for a market. Some may falter but progress still occurs. That seems never to occur in "planned economies".
Honda will be forced by the market to re-enter the market in a behind the status quo status, in my view, but the market forces self-correction or self-liquidating. It is merely another example of Schlumpeter's "Creative Destruction".
There certainly is a need for advanced ICE advances as well. TDI and HCCI technologies will help. GM, like other auto makers are doing, is making advances there too.
I reserve my criticism for those phonies who still delay its adoption once the technology is developed. It makes no sense to manufacture better cars for export, than are offered for internal sale.
Yet the political Greens seem intent on doing exactly that. All the EU auto firms have annouced T2B5 compliant diesels, for export to the USA, but will not offer to sell such vehicles to the EU.
The EU auto firms should be required to do so. Its citizens will continue to breath the increasingly sooty, toxic, air in its cities from dirty, noxious, diesels.
Japan and China are little better. Their pollution standards are EU lite and EU even liter. We get the benefit of cleaner air before their own citizens. I can understand the reasonability that forcing technological developement can easily become excessive and even impossible as the CARBite idiots have frequently displayed. Overstepping the state-of-the-art by hotheads and impatient know-nothings, so evident on these pages, is both possible and has occured several times here in the USA. Technological forcing is a well developed and positive concept when implemented correctly, and essentially only here in the USA.
But delaying improvements that your manufacturers are already implementing in their for export vehicles while professing an overwhelming holier-than-thou attitude and desire for pollution reduction, is pure political posturing and P-H-O-N-I-N-E-S-S.
Posted by: stan peterson | Mar 11, 2008 12:41:46 PM
Drive belts are very lossy. This is why cars are going to electric AC and power steering. To put the BAS on a belt is just expedient. It can be done quickly and slapped on just about any model.
In some ways, GM might have been closer to a better solution by putting the motor on the flywheel gear like the early Silverado "hybrid". At least you eliminate the belt losses and you could start/stop and with some design work, provide acceleration boost and regenerative braking.
Maybe people bash GM a lot because when compared to Toyota, they make a lot of mistakes by waiting too long, bad mouthing the competition's products and then scrambling to catch up. That is an indication of poor management. Management was supposedly one of GM's strong points in the 50s.
Demming had to go to Japan to teach Statistical Process control, now part of Total Quality Management, because no one here would listen to him. Then, in the 80s, after the U.S. car makers were getting wiped out, they wanted to hear all about this "new" method. So it is no wonder that people bash GM and U.S. car makers. After so many decades of buffoonery by the U.S. auto makers, it is an appropriate response by the public.
Posted by: sjc | Mar 16, 2008 11:46:36 AM
How about a hybrid or electric minivan. I don't want an SUV, but I love my minivan. I can haul a LOT more stuff than an SUV. I'll have to hang on to my 10 year old car until someone figures out how to do this.
Posted by: Dale | Jun 24, 2008 10:23:26 AM
