Axil, what energy density are we talking about here?

Anne

Yes, leased batteries is a very interesting option, to promote and expand the use of extended electric range PHEVs and BEVs. More options the better. Let the best one win over time.

Yes, way too many people over-worry and exagerate about electricity production and distribution. There are a good half dozen mature technologies to produce cleaner electricity and distribution is not even a challenge. Why worry soo much for nothing?

Yes, PHEVs will be required for many long range/high power consumption applications, for one or two decades. Nothing wrong with that either.

Yes, most pure ICE machines will be progressively phased out over 20 - 30 years. The transistion may be challenging but is definately not impossible. Industries will adapt or fold. Users will adapt quickly enough.

Anne

Yes, leased batteries is a very interesting option, to promote and expand the use of extended electric range PHEVs and BEVs. More options the better. Let the best one win over time.

Yes, way too many people over-worry and exagerate about electricity production and distribution. There are a good half dozen mature technologies to produce cleaner electricity and distribution is not even a challenge. Why worry soo much for nothing?

Yes, PHEVs will be required for many long range/high power consumption applications, for one or two decades. Nothing wrong with that either.

Yes, most pure ICE machines will be progressively phased out over 20 - 30 years. The transistion may be challenging but is definately not impossible. Industries will adapt or fold. Users will adapt quickly enough.

Larry,

As I understand it, there is a lot of unused capacity in the grid at night when demand is low. We just need to get people to charge their cars at night and not in the peak of the day. So having charging stations at work, or rapid-charging "pumps" at gas stations is not scalable, but everyone charging at home would work fine.

Anonymous,

As I showed, we are talking about an increase by only 15%. Not everybody will charge his car at exactly the same moment. Just like not everybody is filling it up at the pump at the same time. It will be spread out over the entire day, with humps (not spikes) around the rush hours.

The grid will be just fine.

In North America the power grid needs an overhaul anyway. Capacity will be added as demand increases. The technology is already there, and will improve in 20 - 40 years with fusion power. All that's needed is investment in infrastructure by govt.

For weekend trips you should clip on the ICE range extender trailer onto your EV for 600 miles+ range.

what energy density are we talking about here?

For B = 100 T, the energy density is 3.98 GJ/m³, or about 1.1 kWh/liter.

"However this 0 emissions BS has to stop. Electricty production still/will always use(s) fossil fuels and produces alot of CO2,SO2,NOx, etc."

Actually it's the "long tailpipe" BS that has to stop. It's not an argument, it's a caveat. Run a 0 emissions car from a 0 emissions energy source and you get 0 emissions. Don't like your grid? Clean it up.

Who is it that keeps parroting the "long tailpipe" crap anyway?

The ICE extender trailer that you rent at you local corner UHAUL store.. what do you think, 20kw and propane powered?.. dual use for power generation also.. and could also be used at home if the power goes out. That will prove popular in South Florida after a hurricane.

I agree with 100% with Mark_BC. It's a no brainer :-)

Ghosn has shown leadership by quickly reformulating his company's strategy in line with what is required in this economic environment. He is not just going to do a single model, but multiple offerings of EVs. As long as Nissan can deliver on these promises, his company should do well.

My Northwest, large areas of Canada, & Europe, & other places in the world are ready for EVs now. We produce power KW to HP with only 4% of the pollution of an ICE. & nearly none of that 4% is produced in cities. Next to our hydroelectric dams & power lines, the wind turbines are being built. Solar panels will take up no extra space under the power lines.

The people of this planet have to see tho, that EVs, built with the excesses of ICE are NOT for the future. Personly, my 35, 50, 53 & 75 MPG vehicles took care of my needs for 35 years, only needing to borrow my friend's hauling trucks 3 times.

Electric motors are dramatically & elegantly more efficient than ICE. May ICE die along with their fine & nano particles that cause people lung, heart, stroke, arteriosclerosis & ???? deaths & disease. Long live EVs.

For those people who can't see the EV future ahead, let EVs clear the air for you.

Expanding on Reality Czech number

Comparing a small car with 10 gallon fuel capability to a superconductor storage equivalent

For 10 gallons of gas (10) (36650) = 366500 watt-hours

The useful energy from gas

For ICE @ 30% efficiency = (.3)( 366500)= 109950 watt-hours

For a 100 Tesla superconductor the volume needed to store the equivalent magnetic energy

109950 watt-hours/1100 watts-hours/liter = 100 liters @ .95 efficiency = 105 Liters

Ghosn has already created a market for the Renault/Nissan BEV through Project Better Place, a ten year project to turn Israel and Denmark into all solar power/wind power/electric car societies. There is no question the project will have some splash over of electric cars into the other countries, including the U.S. The Governor of Hawaii and the Mayor of San Francisco are also considering a form of Project Better Place.

Ghosn's companies are not restrained by the U.S. lobbying alliance, The AAM, that controls and sets the schedules for Toyota, GM, Ford and Chrysler. I believe they have delayed the introduction of the BEVs for two years to allow their members to drain out their big SUVs, trucks, and inefficient cars.
For info on PBP See: http://www.projectbetterplace.com/

Superconductive storage is quite bad, actually. The problem is that the JxB forces require heavy structure to counter(*). It's no better than storage of a compressed gas. Darn that virial theorem!

Batteries, on the other hand, store energy in the chemical form, which involves no long range forces.

(*) Stationary SMES can transmit these forces through the ground and bedrock, so while the system mass is also large, most of that mass is preexisting rock.

Battery technology is the enabler.

With primitive batteries only HEVs were technically or financially viable. They started showing up five years ago.

In the next 3-10 years the battery size will double for the same cost, and that allows the PHEV, to flourish. Only when battery tech gets much larger by 200%, and prices drop to 15 to 1/10, will the BEV become practical for much more than a glorified NEV golf cart.

Call back in 2020 or so, for BEVs.

There have already been studies on how many EV's can be supported by the current American power grid and it's between 80 to 100 million cars, that would never happen over night anyways so even as the EV became more popular they would just increase power to the grid as needed if needed.
As for and EV that can't get a few hundred miles per charge if not more is complete BS if the EV is designed the right way we can have EV's with todays batteries that get over 400 miles per charge, it's just a question of are people willing to drive a car that might not look sexy of cool. You know what I say if you don;t want one good then pay $5 $7 $10 dollar gas prices but me I will be driving to work in an egg that only cost me 5 cents a mile to drive.
The problem with EV's has really never been the technology but instead the low profit margins, think about it there no back end money being spent, no oil changes no transmission problems etc etc.
An electric motor can last just about forever just change the brushes and a few other minor details.
The auto industry is about to change from a greedy get as much money from stupid people as possible to a we make just enough money to keep going and have a steady low profit margin that will never change, most car companies will either go out of bussiness or merge with others, also they will go into the battery business as well to help with the low profit margin of making and selling EV's.
As for EV's not being zero emission this is true becuase of where the electricity comes from but it's alot easier to clean up a few thousand coal power plants then 200 million ice cars.
Plus we will build more nuclear power plants and I know your going to say what about the spent fuel rods, well in the near future all that nuclear waste will be using to make more electricity or completely neturalized, they technologies are going to come out very soon perhaps by 2025.
Now you and I can do alot aswell by not consuming so much useless crap and power down abit with or wasteful energy habits.
Aslo they need to allow American farmers to start to grow industrail hemp again this would offset some of our oil consumption by making things from hemp instead of oil.
Also hemp is a great crop to grow because it keep the soil healthy .
People just go do your only research and you will find the answer then tell people what you learn and tell them to research aswell.

P.S. hydrogen as a transportation energy will never happen, the cost are just to much and the technology is still 30 to 40 years away.
I think the only thing that will happen with hydrogen will be with renewable energy systems like wind and solar, what they can do is build hydrogen storage systems around these and then use some of the energy to make hydrogen and then use it at night to make power.
The changes the world are about to start going through will be good and bad for alot of people and there will be alot of bumbs in the road most small but a few big, I think no matter what we do alot of people will die perhaps even me, but this is the mess we let ourselfs get into and no one ever said life would be fair or easy.
The best thing to do is be prepared for the worse, even if the worse never happens.

BS we could have been driving EV's 20 years ago even with lead acid batteries, if they would design cars to be pure aerodynamic this alone can increase the mpc by 50%
As for the cost of batteries today it all has to do with production, if you dont mass produce a product guess what the price stays high.

P.S. Don't be surprized if you see GM bring back the EV1 and say something like we can now offer this car because of the new battery technology out there (which ofcourse is BS they could have been producing the EV1 all this time)

Funny thing: only two years ago Carlos Ghosn was determined and loud enemy of hybrid gas-electric vehicles, and biggest promoter of diesel cars (the ones with highest emissions of health harming substances). As a result, Nissan lagged behind and was forced to buy hybrid technology from Toyota.

His current announcement is pure greenwash. Any professional knows that battery electric vehicles will never be mainstream passenger vehicles. Aside from battery problems, there is fundamental limiting factor of fast charge: it requires expensive 100 KW charger with dangerously high voltage, heavy wires, and it will destabilize local electric grid.

Contrary to BEV, strong points of PHEV is that with long overnight charge PHEV do not require fast-charge and high energy battery, could be charged by regular household outlet, do not require expensive and dangerous fast charger, will not destabilize the grid, will not require additional electricity generating capacity for decades, will utilize cheap night-time electricity; PHEVs will not get stranded on the road when battery will run low, do not require recharging infrastructure, and will offer unlimited mobility on gas tank on long trips – again, without any additional infrastructure, while using electricity for 90% of regular vehicle use.

Arguably the best nische for BEVs is overnight charged fleets of city delivery vehicles and alike. The only hope for pure EV I see if it will have ability of convenient refueling by liquid energy carrier; example: PHEV with direct methanol fuel cell range extender.

Quoth Paul Dietz:

Superconductive storage is quite bad, actually. The problem is that the JxB forces require heavy structure to counter(*). It's no better than storage of a compressed gas.

• Its ratio of specific heats is unity.
• The conversion efficiency of stored compression energy to work is also roughly unity.

@ Paul F. Dietz

Batteries, on the other hand, store energy in the chemical form, which involves no long range forces.

Help me understand.

With current technology, how big a battery (dimensions) is needed to equal the energy equivalent of 10 gallons of gas, and how fast can you charge it.

It's no better than storage of a compressed gas.

Unlike gas, you don’t need a new infrastructure to charge with electricity.

The problem is that the JxB forces require heavy structure to counter

What are the breakthroughs needed to engineer a heavy structure?

@ Paul F. Dietz

Remember to keep the charge level no lower the 40%

One thing is guaranteed - in a USA-based forum, any mention of battery powered vehicle progress will be rubbished as not feasible, or not practical, or not wise, or not desirable.

It happens here on this site every day.
Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Guys - if the USA wants to collectively shake its head and miss out on participating in a whole new industry - fine. The rest of the world will just get on with it - and 5-7 years from now Americans will find themselves 100% reliant on foreign car imports.

"..Renault and Nissan are poised to bypass rivals fixated on hybrids. The partners have a new plan that moves them straight into pure electric vehicles by 2011.." (automotivenews.com 4 Feb 2008)

"..So we plan to introduce an all-electric car by 2009/10. I predict that they will become commonplace by 2015 thanks to new battery technology" (Tom Lane (head of Product Planning at Nissan. Nov 2007)

"Eventually the Volkswagen Group plans to introduce full battery electric vehicles, probably powered by Sanyo lithium batteries." (May 28 2008)

31 Jan 2008 -- Jochen Schmalholz, head of BMW's clean-energy technology, told Drive that BMW is considering electric vehicles to fill the 15 to 20 year void before hydrogen vehicles will actually be practical. BMW has even predicted that hydrogen cars could still be 30 years out...

May 2008 -- BMW will decide this year whether to build an electric vehicle, Friedrich Eichiner, board member for corporate and brand development, said.

"In its day, the internal combustion engine was a wonderful device that served us well for over a century. That day, however, will soon be over - driven to extinction by unaffordable fuel costs and environmental legislation. It is time to move on." (Tom Whipple)

Eventually, Nissan “will have a whole lineup of electric cars. The electric car is not a niche product for us.”

5 May 2008 - Rupert Stadler, CEO of AUDI AG, has told a German weekly that the company sees a great future in electric cars. [Source: Reuters]

Fuji Heavy Industries president Ikuo Mori (at Geneva Motor Show 2008) said, “Subaru’s goal is to become the leading brand in the electric vehicle market.”

22 June 2008, The Times... last week Martin Winterkorn, chairman of Volkswagen, told Germany’s popular Bild newspaper: “The future belongs to the electric car.”

25 June 2008 - "The electric car market is the future. We are studying the possibility of joint projects regarding development," (Laurent Dassault, vice-chairman of Dassault Group the French maker of small mainly military aircraft)

Meanwhile in the commercial vehicles field, there are companies who have already identified a market in which the distance limitations of battery power are not a problem - the depot-based delivery fleet. There are tens of thousands of such fleets. Two UK companies have stolen a march and have hundreds of highway-capable all-electric trucks in service on UK streets. Check out the Case Studies page at http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com and visit http://www.modec.co.uk
Their success has prompted the arrival of four more UK makers of all-electric trucks and vans.

A few months ago the number of freely accessible recharging points on UK streets rose from 48 to 60, almost all in London. Now a further 250 are being installed at shopping malls nationwide, and over 1000 are expected by the end of 2008. Hotel chains are starting to offer free overnight recharging facilities. Restaurants are starting to see an advantage in offering one-hour and two-hour daytime fast-charge facilities, so the EV drivers will dine there.

Whatever happened to America's can-do attitude?
There are opportunities galore in the EV field, and all some Americans do each day is shake their heads and reel off excuses.

The future of road transport is electric. If the USA wants to stick with combustion-engined vehicles, that's OK - at least we'll know where to ship our unwanted ones!

@ Axil and other promoters of Superconductive technologies in road-going cars:

Can you list a single application of any device (or part of a device) than needs to be kept at temps below -200 deg Cels all the time when operating, that costs less than one hundred thousand (today's) US dollars, that was sold in more than 10,000 samples, and that is warrantied for at least 2 years?

If you cannot think of any such device, is there a device that is kept at under -200 deg Cels that comes remotely close to the above requirements?

To me you're talking about a pie in the sky.

What about maintenance costs over years?

Superconductivity has been known for more than 50 years, but is impractical for everyday use.

If those Superconductive technologies are so good, why they were not used on space ships, price is not an issue there?
(As far as I know they use either photovoltaics plus some batteries, or some nuclear source of energy).
The most common problems when launching space ships (and most common cause of postponed launches) come from various issues related to fuel tanks and fuel (that are usually kept at very low temps).

@Andrey Levin:

there is fundamental limiting factor of fast charge: it requires expensive 100 KW charger with dangerously high voltage, heavy wires, and it will destabilize local electric grid.

These fast charges will be offered at gas stations only. They only need to upgrade their grid connection. No energy company in the world will lift an eyebrow if you are requesting a 1MW connection. It's commonplace in the industry.

Your safety concern is misplaced. The huge quantities of gas are much more dangerous than a high power fast charger.

Because the adoption of EV's will be gradual, the expansions to the grid will be gradual. Just as the grid expanded due to washing machines, dish washers, microwaves, electric kettles, plasma, etc.

Please stop spreading FUD based on incorrect information.