The obvious problem here is that we are chasing the small issue. Excessive liberalism causes much more damage to people's health than air pollution ever could. For proof look at what liberalism has done to the health of the average Russian, or Cuban.

I agree. I could point out what financial and irreparable damage alcohol and tobacco do to the residents of California in a year. This number would be staggering compared to a puny $28B for exhaust.

Imagine what the burden cost of new HIV infected persons is on the system for California that have to purchase $1200/month in drugs.

I would be more pleased to present the financial cost of pretty much any sin that people could commit. Every sin has a price. Imagine what divorce costs the state...lawyer fees, asset disbursement, housing costs for two individuals...storage buildings.

Gosh, this little smokestack nonsense is really...nonsense.

Oh, and we're GIVING (and yes we will) $25B to GM for more guzzlers and $25B for Ford...for the same...oh, and $25B to Chrysler just because the other two get that much.

But, heavens, an "estimated" $28B on smoke: now thats important!

Nate H.
Dover, Ohio

Clearly the solution to California’s air quality issues is to make the folks in Dover Ohio stop using coal generated electricity. How is your air quality Nate?

Solving California’s air quality issues and reducing ghg is simple and easy. Sell less gasoline and diesel in California. When a collective group of people refuse to adopt easy changes but focus on hard changes that most likely will not work, I suspect that they are not to worried about pollution and AGW.

KIT " simple and easy.....Sell less gasoline and diesel in California"

Is this a let them eat cake scenario or do you have a working alternative?

"For proof look at what liberalism has done to the health of the average Russian, or Cuban."

You fail to mention China, India, Indonesia, Mexico, etc, etc... If the cost of "air pollution" in California is this amount - imagine what it costs people in countries where they are building hundreds of unrestricted coal-fired power plants daily.

"A World Health Organization (WHO) report estimates that diseases triggered by indoor and outdoor air pollution kill 656,000 Chinese citizens each year, and polluted drinking water kills another 95,600."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070709-china-pollution.html

Kit,

The air in Dover is swell, thanks for asking! But us "folks" in Dover Ohio may have a little too much sense as to worry about PM5 or PM10. Life is too short to get one's panties in a twist over this nonsense. It is uncontrollable. As soon as you wipe away car PM, then comes wildfires. Soon as that goes away: a house fire on your street! Oh, no! Don't breathe! Heaven forbid someone turn on a woodburner! eek!

Nate H.
Dover, Ohio

One way California can burn less petroleum and reduce emissions is through greater acceptance of clean diesel passenger vehicles. New vehicles already on the market met CA's stricter emission standards, are 20-40% more fuel efficient and emit 20% less CO2. Moreover these benefits can be amplified even more with future use of biodiesel and other renewable diesel fuels. It's great to talk about plug in hybrid cars, but these won't be commerically available for awhile and the benefits from clean diesel can be reaped NOW.

Wow. I sense some hostility here. Let me try to sort through all this.

@ Nate H.; Dover, Ohio
1)"The air in Dover is swell, thanks for asking! But us "folks" in Dover Ohio may have a little too much sense as to worry about PM5 or PM10... It is uncontrollable."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it IS controllable. Like, with selective catalytic reduction filters and urea injection on diesel engines? Or, by reducing the amount of maritime 'bunker oil' is burned by ships at port by requiring cold ironing (plugging in to shore power)? I'm sure there MUST be a way...

2)"Imagine what the burden cost of new HIV infected persons is on the system for California that have to purchase $1200/month in drugs."

I can see you are not, nor have you ever met a person with HIV (that you are aware of). If you had ever met such a person, you would not use the word "burden".

3)"Every sin has a price. Imagine what divorce costs the state...lawyer fees, asset disbursement, housing costs for two individuals...storage buildings."

I am able to deduce that you believe that divorce is a "sin", and so is having HIV, evidently, by your logic. You seem to know a lot about divorce; are you a lawyer, or do you have problems keeping women from running away from your hate speech?

@Everyone else:
Sorry for the flaming, but wow, self-indulgent, egotistical, narrow minded, foolish, doubtful people like Nate H. from Dover Ohio just drive me crazy. They don't even realize how ignorant they sound (until their wife divorces them).

@Dawn:

"It's great to talk about plug in hybrid cars, but these won't be commerically available for awhile ..."

Check out the announce today from Th!nk and EnerDel. The Saturn VUE PHEV goes on sale next year, the Chevy Volt in 2010 and Tesla has been shipping their EV Roadster for nearly six months.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/11/enerdel-providi.html

ENVIRONMENT NON-SOLIDS ONCE THEIR MADE AND ENTER THE ATMOSPHERE THEY SEPARATE AND ARE NO MORE, UNLESS THEIR ENCLOSED IN A BUILDING. NOW I UNDERSTAND THAT CHANGING THE ENVIRONMENT IS MAINLY TO STOP GLOBAL WARMING AND THIS IS CONSIDERED GOING GREEN. WELL LET ME CLUE YOUR SOCIETY IN ON SOME MAJOR DISCOVERIES. MONTHS AGO I AS ONE OF THE SMARTEST PEOPLE IN AMERICA. I WAS ASKED TO ADVISE PEOPLE CONCERNED ABOUT FINDING THE REAL CAUSE OF G.W., SO 5 1/2 MONTHS AGO I DID. BETWEEN 7-11-08 AND 9-11-08 OUR SEARCHES HAVE CROSSED PERIMETERS AND THOSE RESULTS HAVE STOPPED THE GLACIERS FROM MELTING, THEY STARTED FREEZING AND FRESHWATER AROUND THEM IS FREEZING TOO, SO I ADVISED A RETRACED SEARCH BACKWARDS OVER THE 9-11-08 TO 8-11-08 AND BECAUSE OF THIS THE UNMANNED DRONES ON MANY DIFFERENT CONTINENTS HAVE CAUSED THE GLACIERS ON EARTH TO STOP MELTING OFF AND ON AND I FIGURED OUT THAT ITS THE EARTH'S ROTATION THATS THE ON AND OFF SWITCH TO OUR PROBLEMS. I FIGURED OUT A COMMON DENOMINATOR TO DELETING GLOBAL WARMING. I FIGURED IT TAKES 3 SOLUTIONS TO DELETE G.W. 1/ OF 3 UNDER THE OCEAN, 2/ OF 3 IN CREVICES IN EARTH=1 AND 2 LINK UP, 3/ OF 3 IS IN FULL OPERATION.= 3/ OF 3= PRIMARY FUNCTION CAME FROM THE PAST WHEN BILL HALLEY AND HIS ROCK-N-ROLL COMETS BUILT AND LAUNCHED A COMET BEFORE OUR TIME OF THIS KIND OF KNOWLEDGE TO DESTROY AN INCOMING OBJECT, AS DID 2 OTHER PLANETS IN OUR UNIVERSE. THIS IS 3/ OF 3 TO DELETE THE INCOMING. NOW OUR GOVERNMENT IS BLOCKING OUT ALOT OF MY EMAILS, BECAUSE OUR PRESIDENTS LIEING TO EVERYONE THAT ITS OUR FAULTS FOR G.W. WHEN ALL 31,000 SCIENTISTS ALL CONCUR THAT MAN WAS'NT RESPONSIBLE FOR GLOBAL WARMING. BUT NOW GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE HAS BEEN BROUGHT INTO VIEW TO DO SOMETHING DRASTICAL TO TRY AND CHANGE OUR CLIMATE, WHEN ONLY NATURE IS IN CONTROL, UNLESS SOME NATIONS FROM THE GLOBAL SUMMIT PLAN ON USEING 6 NEU-CLEAR BOMBS IN CERTAIN LOCATIONS TO DELETE EARTHS CLIMATE, INWHICH MAY KNOCK EARTH OUT OF ORBIT, WHAT PEOPLE WERE AFRAID OF FROM EXPERIMENTING WITH TO MUCH EXPLOSIVES BACK IN THE 60'S ARE NOW MAYBE BECOMING A REALITY, ALL BECAUSE A BAD PRESIDENT IS ATTEMPTING SUICIDE FOR ALL OF US, SINCE EVEN HIS OWN PEOPLE HAVE REFUSE HIS EXISTANCE AS ONE OF THEM. A SILLY THOUGH, BUT IT MAY BE A TRUE THOUGHT AND FOR SOME REASON, THEIR'S NOW A SO-CALLED NOW KNOW THEORY THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN MAN IS RESPONSIBLE BY USEING UNDER ICE FIGURES FUNDED BY THE UNKNOWN OUT OF THE BLUE. IN MY OPINION ITS BUSH THATS USEING PART OF AMERICAN MONIES TO FUND THIS STRANGE PHENOMINON OUT OF THE BLUE, WHEN OUR SEARCHES HAVE STOPPED THE GLACIERS FROM MELTING. ANYWAY THE ENVIRONMENT DOES'NT HURT OUR PLANET, EVEN CARBONS HELP THE GREENERY FLOURISH EVEN MORE AND THEY GIVE OFF OXYGEN TO HELP ALL LIVING LIFE. WELL THIS IS THE ONLY WAY I CAN GET THROUGHT TO YOU, BECAUSE OUR GOVT. IS BLOCKING MY EMAIL SO HAVE A NICE DAY. I'M ALSO THE ONLY PERSON ON EARTH THAT HAS ALL THE MAJOR SOLUTIONS ON EARTH. READ THIS http://www.inventube.com/ooojay/blog/ i have earthquakes, global warming, farming, floods, fires, freshwater and if all continents do this http://www.socyberty.com/Activism/First-Step-for-the-Solution-to-Global-Warming.103109 AROUND THEIR CONTINENTS, THEY'LL STOP THE OCEANS FROM ENGULFING THE SEA LEVEL LANDS ON ALL CONTINENTS AND IF ALL RIVERS, STREAMS, ETC. ARE LOWERED 15 FEET, THEN THAT WILL STOP ALL FRESHWATER FLOODS FROM THE RAINS, RUN-OFF IN THE MOUNTAINS PERMANENTLY. MIKE

I have driven two Saturn Vue's (non hybrid) both had less than 30K miles and I would describe both as rattling buckets of bolts.

I would love a Volt, but at 40K, not for the avg family

and Tesla 100K sure, when pigs fly

@Nate

I was born in small town Ohio but my father moved west eventually ending up in California. There was a time when the steel mills, coal plant, and coal heated homes caused significant air and water quality issues in coal country. Where we lived in California the air was clean. Now the air is bad in California and we have learned to use coal without significant environment impact.

It would be interesting if a study was performed of the health effects of burning leaves in small towns where it is still allowed. Moving back east from the nanny states was a shock.

@Joseph

Driving less and using less gasoline is not like eating cake. I remember washing the family car when my dad car pooled and there were no freeways near his house in California. Many things could be done in California that would not be classified as a hardship. It is just a recollection but car pooling was a social norm.

"Sorry for the flaming, but wow, self-indulgent, egotistical, narrow minded, foolish, doubtful people like Nate H. from Dover Ohio just drive me crazy. They don't even realize how ignorant they sound (until their wife divorces them)."

Unlike me of course.

quote:

"Sorry for the flaming, but wow, self-indulgent, egotistical, narrow minded, foolish, doubtful people like Nate H. from Dover Ohio just drive me crazy. They don't even realize how ignorant they sound (until their wife divorces them)."

You have to try to not get riled up by them. They are not in the majority. The empty can rattles the most.

The Republicans are out! Just remember that whenever a flamer gets on here.

Bike Commuter Person:
You certainly do assume alot. Perhaps this is your trouble. Not so much me, but your assumptions of knowing everyting about everyone. Let me set you a little "straighter" (I know that word is forbiden to you as hate speech) on the facts that I mentioned:

1: you said to correct you if you're wrong. You are. I am hereby correcting you. PM5 and PM10 will not be eliminated just by your SCR and DPFs and whatnot. They may be reduced.

2: you mentioned I don't know anyone with HIV. I do. I have a friend that has it. It is a burden. The word burden is quite correct for that disease. He obtained the HIV with full knowledge of his risk. You need to recognize what something is and move on. Dont try to Pollitically correct everything someone else says.

3: Divorce: Yes, most cases of divorce is a sin. You can choose to believe whatever floats your boat. I was making a statement based upon not just my beliefs, but God's Word. Look it up for yourself. Its not hate speach, as you'd like to call it, but the Truth. There is no shame in the Truth.

Its really facinating to me that you would describe me, not even having met me before, as self-indulgent. Thats where you are really off the beaten path, "dude."

And as for being "narrow-minded" -- yep. I am. I don't try to create a grey out of black or white. You can have your mind changed by the Santa Barbara winds for all intents and purposes, but that's just "not how I roll, buddy."

Sorry for driving you "crazy" but it seems as it doenst take a whole heckova lot to do so.

Good day and I would hope you would be a little more "Open Minded" with "folks from Dover, Ohio" from now on.

Nate H.
Dover, Ohio

The difference between ozone / particulate pollution and smoking/drinking divorce etc , in the case of pollution from cars it is imposed on me a cyclist through no choice of my own. The technology exists to stop it (phev's) or massivly reduce it (urea diesel treatment etc). But the creaters of the pollution don't have to pay the cost to implement this technology and therefore usually don't bother.

Forcing people to pay for the costs they externalise onto others = good thing. Forcing people to pay the costs of their sinning (someone else's moral judgement) = no business of government.

@ nickf

When nickf became a cyclist in a city with dirty air he accepted the risk. I stopped riding my bike to work when I lived in a big city because it did not make much sense to exercise hard when pollution was bad.

If nickf lived in Dover the risk would be much lower. If nickf wants to reduce his risk that it is more reasonable for him to change than ask a million others who both accept and contribute to the risk.

The second flaw in nickf’s theory is the heath risk from an accident is several orders of magnitude higher than poor air quality. To quantify this, the risk from air pollution should be insignificant and is most places in the US. I am skeptical about the magnitude of risk in California. It would not be the first time that a risk has been exaggerated so that the nanny state can interfere with how folks want to enjoy themselves.

When did this place become a hangout for right wing knuckleheads?