i remembered this old table of projections:

http://odograph.com/data/2005/04/02/table81.png

discussed here:

http://odograph.com/?p=56

basically it looks like the well-to-wheels efficiency of natural gas hybrids run around 16%, significantly above H2 ICE efficiencies.

Regarding the earlier comments, a few comments: (1) the hydrogen Prius is not a DoE project, but a California state government feasibility study project, and (2) a major design problem with natural gas-fueled vehicles is that the fuel cylinders take up a lot of room, while a major design problem facing hybrids is...the battery pack and electronics take up a lot of room.

A natural gas-fueled hybrid, while a nice dream, would be hard to design with any usable cargo space, and passenger cars without cargo space do not sell. That's why we've not seen many NGV hybrids.

A natural gas hybrid city bus, however - tanks on the roof - might be worth a try.

If we are lucky batteries will improve enough to make the entire issue mute... but we cant count on it and with global warming and climate change id rather not count on a bajillion square miles of plantlife providing my fuel. In the shotrun im sure lot of fuels will run rampant.. same as happened the last time they were groping for a fuel to power cars.... and again its gona be fun finding out what happens next. Odd isnt it that both times it was at the end of an era and the start of a whole new much odder one?

that's what i figured. i guess my question was to get jack thinking along those lines ... and there are certainly a few natural gas cars, for example the honda civic gx, that show it can be done at a low price point.

Good point about climate change affecting biofuel reliability as I see signs of problems locally. However isn't natural gas going to peak 10 years after oil? That's within the life of a car built today. The cost-benefit calculation for the pressure tank and system needs to factor this in. It might be a case of going for the least problematical option.

The problem I see with using the Prius as a PHEV is its relatively small electric motor. My understanding is that the electric motor is not large enough to power the car to highway speeds.

aussie, i think the important thing is to burn that natual gas where it is most efficeint (maybe in busses and trucks more than cars) as it gets more expensinve and scarce, rather than reform it into even more expensive hydrogen.

but, the "hydrogen economy" has a big lobby these days, and as they are having trouble with fuel cells, they're falling back to "internal combustion hydrogen" as a stopgap.

Odograph wrote: "is hydrogen actually easier to store than natural gas?...i guess my question was to get jack thinking along those lines...and there are certainly a few natural gas cars, for example the honda civic gx, that show it can be done at a low price point." (sic)

Please take the time to read posts carefully before replying. I did not compare NGV to H2, nor did I endorse (or disparage) the Prius H2 ICE project. Actually, I didn't get around to any opinions at all. I merely pointed out that (1) the Prius project is not a federal project, as someone else had thought, and (2) one of the reasons why natural gas hybrids are, at present, few and far between.

It sounds like Odograph is bullish on NGVs (great!) but oversensitive to anyone who he or she percieves to have different views. That's dangerous. We have to be able to look at both the positive and the negative of any solution. Some of my clients are municipal fleets with electric, hybrid, NGV, biodiesel, and hydrogen transportation, among others. They are the test beds for many of the alternative fuels that we discuss.

I have seen too many leaks created during the filling process to be comfortable with NGV. Most of them involved driver error and the Honda Civic GX, and an NGV leak releases a lot of hydrocarbons into the air, especially if the driver doesn't notice it and operates the car. Happens way too much for my comfort.

By the way, the Honda Civic GX doesn't necessarily "show that [NGV] can be done at a low price point." I think it can, but we don't know whether or not Honda is making money on these vehicles. Civic GX production is low enough that Honda can afford to lose money on them and keep them around to help Honda's image and further their research. Don't forget that there were at least two money-losing cars on sale in the US in 2000 - the Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius.

Until operator error can be dramatically reduced, I'm a bit leery of all gaseous fuels - NGV, propane, hydrogen, anything - and believe me, I want to get rid of gasoline as much as the next guy. Practical problems often foil pie-in-the-sky solutions. Unless we face and solve those problems, it's all just talk.

Although Engineer-Poet's post is somewhat vague, I think he or she has somehow concluded that I am worried about the safety hazards inherent in NGV vehicles, and from that, has further concluded that I think extension cords are dangerous. So it's time to drag out the sarcasm, and then run away. Oh, dear.

Again, please read the post all the way through before replying! I did not address NGV gas leaks as a safety issue; rather, I brought up the amount of hydrocarbons released into the air during NGV leaks. I'm referring to emissions. And I'm not talking theory, but practical experience. You may be surprised to learn than an NGV vehicle with a serious and very audible leak can be driven for a while before running out of natural gas. All too often, a municipal employee will drive up to the city or county's fleet maintenance yard, and ask a technician, "what's that whooshing sound?" And yes, NGV drivers are trained on these vehicles; and yes, this has happened more than once with the same driver. Since I brought this up in the context of emissions, and not safety, I'll expect Engineer-Poet to opine as to whether or not the above situation represents a safety problem...

In answer to your query about hybrids (and I'm assuming that you really wanted an answer): As with all emerging technologies, I think that the plug-in concept is very promising. But assuming that someone with NGV refueling concerns is therefore scared of an extension cord? That's junk logic. My own experience in the field suggests that the average person - even after NGV training - can still make enough of a mistake to cause a problem. Your mileage may vary.

Please remember that this all started because (a) I corrected someone who thought that the AQMD H2 hybrid project was a federal project, and (b) I explained the design problem that has limited NGV hybrid research as compared to gas-electric hybrid research. These statements were somehow interpreted as anti-NGV, pro H2. I have not attacked or defended any one technology. All new technologies come with problems. You can pretend that they are not there, but someone will have to do the dirty work and solve these problems. Step up!

It sounds like Odograph and Engineer-Poet are pro-NGV. Great! If you have real-world NGV field experiences of your own, particularly any which contradict what I have written (rather than what you think I meant), PLEASE send them along. I am open to as much information as I can get, especially decent field research. And if you want to see a natural-gas hybrid, build one!

On LNG: Most LNG investors want to amortize their terminal plants over a 20yr period and beyond. Well, the US has missed the boat. Much of the world's exportable Natural Gas is under long term 30 yr contracts.

We'll have to struggle just to keep the nation's pilot lights from going out due to shortages and the resulting pressure drops. I shudder to contemplate the number of manual restart and defective electrical restart pilot lights there are in the country.

Now, let's add a new demand on the above system - NGVs.