Hybrids make no sense economically to buy. The premium you pay takes years and years to make up for the gas saved. Sure there's some tax benefits but who really thinks of those. The reason people buy hybrids instead of well tuned Honda Civics is that they think they're getting away with something. Everytime they break they know they are accruing energy and feel an emotional rush from having "cheated the system" in their minds.

This is why plug-ins will make the hybrid boom look small by comparison. People will love plugging in their cars, thinking they're getting cheap energy while all the other suckers have to pay at the pump. They'll get a psychic rush everytime they pass a gas station and realize they don't have to stop.

^ With all due respect, you're wrong, many times over.

The premium you pay takes years and years to make up for the gas saved

The payback period varies widely, as a function of (number of miles driven per year), price of gas over that entire timeline, assorted add'l benefits (free parking in some munipalities, access to HOV lanes, etc). In some cases, the payback period, including adjusting for present value, inflation, etc., is less than 5 years. The hybrid makes pure financial sense for many people.

Sure there's some tax benefits but who really thinks of those.

Surely you jest. The tax breaks are a big part of the equation, and I can assure you that folks are taking that tax break into account when they consider purcasing the vehicle.

The reason people buy hybrids instead of well tuned Honda Civics is that they think they're getting away with something. Everytime they break they know they are accruing energy and feel an emotional rush from having "cheated the system" in their minds.

OK, now I just think you're strange. There's a huge difference between "cheating the system" and good old fashioned Yankee frugality. American history, going back 400 years, includes conservation and frugality as fundamental components of the economy. It's only in the past 20 or 30 years that this has been less emphasized. In a sense, part of this frugality is a moral issue, not a financial one.

This is why plug-ins will make the hybrid boom look small by comparison. People will love plugging in their cars, thinking they're getting cheap energy while all the other suckers have to pay at the pump. They'll get a psychic rush everytime they pass a gas station and realize they don't have to stop.

Maybe. And maybe that rush will fall to dispair when they get their first bill from the local Edison.

It's true that hybrids aren't financially efficient for the little ol' granny who only drives to the grocery store and to church. But, for folks who put on a lot of miles, hybrids do make sense. For folks who believe they have a moral responsibility to be frugal, hybrids do make sense. For folks who believe in reducing their carbon/pollution footprint, hybrids make sense. Hell, for those who *hate* to stop for gas, hybrids make sense.

The differential with hybrids is coming down; they will make even more sense in the future.

Scooters tend to be quite polluting (even 4 stroke ones)

I know this is true for the old-school Vespas et al, but is it still true for modern ones? Got data?

Is it fuel injected? I didn't find any info on that on their site.

If I had to guess no would be my bet.

Everything but the top of the line $8500 honda scooters use a carb.

They use fuel injection on their 600cc sport bikes. The last one of these I worked with was a 2003 F4i but it was still only an open loop control system. meaning that it did not have an 02 sensor for feedback.

I have heard that a lawn mower produces more polution in 1 hr of operation than a new automotive engine does in 100,000 mi.

Not sure if they were talking about a 4 cycle mower.

You can have good mpg and still be "dirty" in terms of emissions. You can have an inefficent engine and still get good sounding mpg #'s (2 cycle especially)

If you want to compair two vehicles you need to look at MPG, emissions, and BSFC.

Brake specific fule consumption tells you how efficient an engine is at turning fule into useable power, (lower is better) a diesel might have a BSFC of .325

http://www.sae.org/ohmag/features/mahlechart/mahlechart.pdf

A gasoline car .4 - .5
I'd love to see numbers on automotive gas engines in current vehicles ...anyone have this?

As to the discussion on emissions on small engine vehicles. I know the EPA just past some new regulation on Catalysts on lawn tractors and other vehicle classes for the very near future.

If you look closely there are more than a few new motorcycles that are running closed loop EFI and some with catalysts. The new Honda VFR (sportbike) even has a catalyst. This technology is working its way down the food chain.

Stomv,

I was listening until you mentioned "good old fashioned Yankee frugality." Sounds like something you can buy in a jar in the gift shop of a Cracker Barrel. Obviously, we are not living in the same America.

russ, i'd have to side with stomv, esp on "getting the bill from Edison". in a largely unregulated market (which many electric markets are), shit happens. you think people would be crazy about electric cars during the rolling blackouts in california? i think not.

haha what would be pretty cool is an all-electric scooter with a speaker at the end that would make pre-recorded noises. with buttons on the front, like "hard accelerate" or something.

If you can recharge your PHEV Vespa from a solar panel, you're in GREAT shape; not only do you have an independent source of electricity, you can use it for transportation!  Talk about independence; neither rolling blackouts nor fuel shortages can take you down completely.

As for Harleys, IMHO everyone driving any vehicle deliberately modified to be louder than permitted by law should be arrested and the vehicle confiscated and sold at auction.  Yes, on the first offense.  That would end the problem post haste.

I'm quite serious about the solar stuff.  Even at 25¢/kWh, electricity from PV panels is roughly competitive with gasoline today; all you need is a vehicle that takes electricity.  Wind is downright cheap.

After having had an asshole with megaphone pipes roar up and down my street several times a few years ago, I have little tolerance remaining for them.  Arresting drivers and confiscating vehicles works to get rid of nuisances like johns cruising for streetwalkers, and it will work better when the vehicle itself is the crime.

Compare

Aprilia SR Ditech 50 cc (direct injection two stroke)
6.5 cv real
1.8 l /100 km on ECE 40 drive cycle
Euro 3 on ECE 40 drive cycle with catalyst (same power)

Piaggio Vespa ET3 50cc (2 valve 4 stroke)
3.8 cv real
2.8 l /100 km on ECE 40 drive cycle
Euro 3 with seconday air injection electronic carb and catalyts

So what does that mean. It means that even with a twenty percent reduction in fuel consupmtion the vespa will still be slower and consume more fuel and won't be any cleaner than the Ditech scooter.

Why not do this to the Ditech. The lower the power requirements on the DiTech the better the FC. No probelms geting real world 1l / 100 km on a 30mph version (less for higher speed rating obvoiusly)

NIMBY.