Hy-Drive in Deal with Mining Equipment Company for Hydrogen Generating System
28 August 2006
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| The Generation 2 HGS mounted on a truck. |
Hy-Drive Technologies has entered into a definitive marketing, distribution and manufacturing agreement with Canadian-based Mining Technologies International Inc. (MTI) for the Hy-Drive on-board Hydrogen Generating System (HGS). MTI had purchased 20 of the HGS units earlier in the year. (Earlier post.)
Under the terms of the agreement, MTI will adopt the HGS technology for use on selected underground and aboveground mining equipment. The work will include sales, marketing and manufacturing by MTI as well as ongoing research and development to enhance HGS features and make them more suitable for the mining market.
The Hy-Drive system is based on an on-board electrolyzer, powered by the engine’s standard electrical charging circuit, that converts distilled water to hydrogen and oxygen.
HGS injects small amounts of the hydrogen and oxygen into the combustion chamber of an internal combustion engine. The resulting enriched air mixture yields a more complete and faster burn, resulting in reduced emissions, improved fuel efficiency and more engine torque.
An electronic process controller varies the energy input to maintain a constant flow of gases, while an electronic safety module ensures safe operation. HGS uses two litres of distilled water for every 80 hours of operation. The HGS operates only when the engine is running.
Hy-Drive will provide MTI with core component parts of the HGS technology and MTI will then manufacture a finished commercial product specifically to suit the vast array of sizes and number of fuel burning equipment and vehicles that operate throughout the mining industry. Ongoing research and value-added enhancement work will also take place at MTI’s Sudbury, Ontario facility.
We are very excited about the opportunity to market Hy-Drive’s HGS technology to the mining industry. We found tremendous improvements in emissions and specifically, particulate matter when we measured it and compared it to the original tests, it was almost eliminated down to 0.02% and the NOx and CO gases were reduced substantially.
Having purchased and tested 20 HGS units earlier this year, we saw very quickly the enormous benefit that can be achieved from the installation of the technology on diesel-burning mining equipment. While the fuel-saving levels of approximately 27% were very impressive and surpassed our expectation, we were much more focused on the emission reduction possibilities that the HGS presented.
Having already worked with Hy-Drive for some time we have already begun discussions with some of our customers to quickly adopt the technology for their respective operations including a very well known large Iron Ore producer. Some of these discussions have already presented immediate results as we are presently finalizing agreements to deploy the HGS at four (4) different mine locations.
We believe this technology will substantially change the way we think about the air quality and the conditions of the air and health and safety for people underground as well as on the surface.
—Robert Lipic, President and CEO of MTI
Hy-Drive is also targeting the heavy-duty trucking market.
Reducing fuel consumption by 25%+ and GHG at the same time with relatively low cost add-on unit is very good news. It should be applied and even mandated on all buses, trucks, railroad diesel-electric engines etc.
A smaller lower cost unit should be installed on all our SUVs and other gas guzzlers.
Wonder why the Big 3 and other major car & truck manufacturers have not offered such units before...... What are their engineers doing?
Posted by: Harvey D. | 28 August 2006 at 07:49 AM
This is good. They should be able to lean out the fuel ratio with this installed as well. At least with regular gasoline engines, there is a limit (stoichiometric ratio) where the computer will go no leaner. I wonder if it is the same with diesels; I suspect it is. Hydrogen will support somewhat leaner than normal, and even leaner than stoichiometric combustion on gasoline engines without the need to advance the timing because it combusts so quickly.
If they were to go leaner, I also wonder what that would do for the lubricity of the fuel content, ie, would it have a detrimental long term wear effect on the engine components with hydrogen supplementation? This is not to put down the technology; there are many positives, I just wonder about long-term.
Posted by: John W. | 28 August 2006 at 07:51 AM
Hey Harvey, interesting what you said. I have very recently installed hydrogen supplementation on my odyssey. It works except for one thing that I sort of mentioned in the above post: all stock gasoline engines are computer controlled in their fuel ratios, and will never go leaner than stoichiometric fuel ratio (14:7-1, or so), which is only used under ideal driving conditions at that.
To take full advantage of the system I need to lean the fuel ratio down more than normal. (to 18:1 to 20:1--you can see where the fuel savings come from now.) I have been able to do it by adjusting the voltage signal of the MAP sensor to the computer, but the computer is very proactive in readjusting the ignition timing to more advanced to compensate in proportion. So I see great mileage figures (probably 25-30% greater) for a couple seconds but then the computer compensates and I lose it. It doesn't realize that there is supplental hardware on board of course...it's just a stupid computer. On a stock engine that would be a good thing, cause a stock engine can't run so lean, and it would produce mountains of Nox emissions if even a little bit too lean, plus risk of burning valves, etc. But mine's not stock anymore.
I'm still working on it...Once I can bypass or "trick" the ECU into staying at the fuel ratio I want, I should receive full-time fuel savings and emmissions improvements. I will be working on the 02 sensor signal voltage next; that is not so directly plugged into the ECU. Normally this level of pro-activity would be a good thing: Honda's run clean, but it is a pain in the but for me at the moment.
I am not too familiar with hydrogen supplentation on diesels, but I am initially surprised that these guys claim a dramatic 27% improvement in mileage. I would like to see that myself before I really believe that claim. Does that include a leaning out of the fuel ratio automatically by the computer? A unit by itself on a gasoline engine would not just give you a 27% fuel efficiency increase: the engine needs to be optimized to take advantage of the hydrogen presence. You need to retard the ignition, or at least not allow it to be advanced more than normal, and it could use a much higher compression ratio if it is leaned out with hydrogen supplementation added. With none of these things in place, no gasoline engine will ever get 27% increase in fuel mileage with just a hydrogen generator on a stock engine. Not even close! But, like I said, I am not too familiar with hydrogen with diesels and if this might be different for them.
This sure makes for an interesting and informative project though, and once I iron out this last tweak it will be a very cost-effective project as well.
Posted by: John W. | 28 August 2006 at 08:32 AM
oh one more thing...I am able to see fuel mileage rates and increases with the system I am working with because I have a scan-gauge plugged into the OBD Port as I drive. If I was just going by feel I would never be able to see these gains so quickly or accurately.
Posted by: John W. | 28 August 2006 at 08:36 AM
Use of post catalytic converter waste heat for electric power (thermoelectric, thermovoltaic, steam turbine, stirling, etc), high temp electrolysis, and tap water to create distilled water are possibilities. It would be a way of recycling waste heat through thermal, electric, and chemical processes. You would also get cleaner, more efficient, and thorough combustion.
_
___In short, more bang (and cleaner bang) for your buck/gallon.
Posted by: allen Z | 28 August 2006 at 10:44 AM
John W,
Which system are you using? I am considering ordering one for my X5. Ease of install?
Your engine (in the odessey) is probably a varient of the K line (K20 or something). The same one used in civics. You could probably take it to a tuning house and have a custom ECU written up.
I am curious as to why BMW has looked at this solution for their diesel engines. It seems that they might make Tier 2 Bin 5 regs with this equipment installed. Could you imagine an E90 320D with one of these installed? 60+mpg!!!
Posted by: John | 28 August 2006 at 12:11 PM
Truckers would love to have this on their rigs. Less emissions and better fuel economy? Fit it with a 10 gallon tank and I don't think 10MPG for a fully loaded Class 8 would be out of reach.
Posted by: John Ard | 28 August 2006 at 02:12 PM
John W. -
Here is your simple solution: Get a wideband O2 setup. The systems which cost around $500 almost always have an output to give a standard O2 signal for your ECU. This way you adjust the tuning for whatever lambda reading you want and then put out a standard signal to the ECU. How you handle the tuning is up to you but this gets you around the closed loop operation problem with the O2 sensor during part throttle low rpm operation.
I could see this working with waste electricity (TE generators etc) but how do you get more energy out than you put in if you are using electricity from the vehicle to electrolyze the water? I suppose the emissions benefits are worthwhile and there are times when the alternator puts out more power than you can use (mid to high rpm if you have a stock radio and no other additional accessories added on). Otherwise I don't see how this will provide improved gas mileage (at low rpm, idle, etc).
Posted by: Patrick | 28 August 2006 at 02:33 PM
There are suddenly a lot of "John's" on this site...:/
To the first John, I don't know if I'm allowed to mention the name here on this forum as it might constitute advertizing, so if I broke the rule Mr. Moderator, just pull the name out not the whole post please.
the name of the system is "hydrogen boost." Its' a whole sytem, comes also with a fuel heater, some good additive, wiring, scan gauge, etc, etc. The price went up lately so you'll pay quite a bit more than I did, but for bigger engined vehicles that do a lot of driving it will pay for itself fairly quickly. We're trying to figure out how to work with this computer; I get the feel he's sold most of his hundreds of units to people that own domestics that aren't as finicky with emissions controls. This particular Odyssey has a 2.3 liter v-tec accord engine in it. Not a rocket by any means, but very good overall with such a light van.
Patrick, thanks for the advice; you sound like an engine tunerd. I would love to hear more from you but fear we'll bore everyone here with the details. A programable ecu would work too, but they're a fortune. This van stays in closed loop virtually always, it's amazing. I am unsure what a wideband 02 setup is or what lambda setting is. Some tuner I am eh? If you want to reply directly to me I would muchly appreciate your help!
Also Patrick, this sytem is not really designed to give more power. It's just designed, really, to make the engine support a super clean lean burn, much leaner than it would normally be able to. Though it is adjustable and you can get a little more power at some settings, your nox emissions will be sky high then (Hydro carbon and carbon dioxide emissions will always be very very low when so lean and esp. with clean hydrogen burning too).
But at the super lean 19:1 fuel ratios where the nox emissions drop down to normal again, you will also see a relatively commensorate *decline* in power. So say there is a 30% increase in fuel efficiency, there might be a 20-25% reduction in overall power. For most 200-350 horsepower vehicles just driving down the road, their horsepower is supreme overkill anyways, so you wouldn't notice it probably unless you were drag racing while set so lean. Anyway, it's adjustable on the fly with most cars.
Posted by: John W. | 28 August 2006 at 04:15 PM
John W.:
Go to autospeed.com, they have digital fuel adjuster kit, which modifies signal from oxygen sensor and therefore “trick” the computer to keep air/fuel mix different from stoichiometric. Naturally, you will have to install wide band oxygen sensor. BTW, great website magazine for DIY enthusiast, especially archives (it is paid subscription, but it worth it). Good luck with hydrogen/lean mixture, but consider this:
Slightly lean mixture gives higher exhaust gas temperature, which could burn exhaust valves.
Lean mixture will require remapping of spark advance, and this could be done only on dyno – hell of a job and very expensive.
Running lean mixture will make your cat inoperative, and NOX will go through the roof.
Despite popular urban legend, combustion of fuel in modern engines is almost complete, and there are no means to gain more then 0.1% efficiency by combustion of minuscule amount of unburned CO and HC.
Speed of combustion in SI engine is fairly fast, and no noticeable efficiency gain could be achieved by even faster combustion, which always carries risk of detonation.
Addition of hydrogen to combustion chamber will lower emission of NOX – hydrogen atom have ability to strip NO from oxygen (chemistry used in SCR), but only slightly.
Generally speaking, there are no ways to somehow significantly increase fuel efficiency of SI ICE. Some technologies, like Atkinson cycle or stratified charge gasoline direct injection (requires NOX absorber cat – emerging technology), which really could improve efficiency of SI ICE, are under intensive development by automotive manufacturers, and I doubt DIY mechanic could compete with them in that field.
Posted by: Andrey | 29 August 2006 at 12:41 AM
Thanks Andrey, everything you say is good and true, for the stock engine. Dyno work has been done with this system, and you can go so far past stoichiometric with this system that the nox goes back down to normal levels pretty much. Yes, just a little lean will make the nox go through the roof. When leaned out fully you actually don't need the cat, the nox is about the same as stock and the other two main emissions are practically zero. Without the cat converter!
Same with combustion temps: if you go that far past stoichiometric (19:1, say), the temps fall right off again, and you will do no more damage than if your fuel ratio were 10:1.
when just gas and air are mixed that lean, a stock engine will not run, and if so, very poorly: at very lean ratios the timing has to be advanced because the flame spread will not be as fast. (at normal ratios the flame spread is fine). The small amounts of Hydrogen (and oxygen) are particularly useful here: it explodes instantly (remember burning hydrogen in highschool chemistry class?). I don't even think hydrogen has the BTU content of gasoline in this context, but it's not for power necessarily, it's to help sustain super lean burn, same with the fuel heater, another supplement to help lean burn.
Thanks very much for your suggestions, I will check out that website. Hopefully I can do this on a shoestring budget!
Patrick, sorry I accidentally called you an "engine tunerd." That was a typo, but a funny one you have to admit!
Posted by: John W. | 29 August 2006 at 07:11 AM
There is one thing though. You say a 19:1 or greater ratio of air to fuel drops NOx but Mitsubishi with their 4G93GDI, 4G94GDI, and 4G94T GDI engines run a 40:1 air fuel ratio during part throttle low load operation and they specifically state on their website technical journals that this requried the development of a catalyst specifically designed to address extremely high levels of NOx emissions. This catalyst requries gas with 15ppm of sulfur or less otherwise it fails quickly.
Dyno time isn't that expensive (usually around $60 per hour) if you have your tuning setup ready to go and you already have a good idea of what you need to do and what you want to check. 10 minutes for setup time, make a couple pulls, alter tuning, couple pulls, alter tuning, couple pulls, alter tuning and then 10 minutes to take it off the dyno...probably 1.5 to 2 hours total to tune one aspect. We aren't trying to setup a standalone fuel & ignition system here; just alter the stock parameters so it doesn't take nearly as long.
Posted by: Patrick | 29 August 2006 at 09:06 AM
I don't know anything about those Mitsubishi engines. You mention sulfer in the fuel, does that mean they are diesels? Diesels of course run super hot combustion to begin with, so I suspect it would be a different ball game with diesels. If they are straight gasoline and they make that much nox on super lean low load conditions, I don't understand it, but there is still much I don't know.
The manufacturer of the system I invested in (and ultimately I have to either trust him or not) has his own dyno and emissions testing equipment, and on his vehicle/s, which are normally aspirated gasoline vehicles, the nox drops down very close to normal or stock around 19:1, and to stock for sure by 20:1. Nox production is largely determined by combustion temperature, and when you go past stoichiometric, the temps fall off again. 14.7:1 is the peak of the hill, so to speak. Around 16:1 the Nox is stratospheric!
Of course it would be good to have others confirm his findings as well, but I don't know if that has happened. I realize that puts some questions marks behind the claim perhaps, but it makes sense from a theory point of view as well.
Posted by: John W. | 29 August 2006 at 11:54 AM
John:
Once again good luck with your experiments. Even in 21 century combustion/engines are more art, then science, so there are always chance of accomplish something unusual.
Some comments: gasoline stoichiometric combustion generates higher peak temperatures and much higher exhaust temperatures then diesel engines. Hence higher NOx generation. But at stoichiometric combustion three-way cat could destroy 95+% of NOx, not the case with diesel. I doubt super lean combustion will have low enough NOx to pass emission certification. But potentially there is a cure for this problem: NOx absorber cats. Your experiments with extending of stable lean combustion limit by H2/O2 addition could be really interesting. E-mail me directly for further questions.
Posted by: Andrey | 30 August 2006 at 12:38 AM
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