Could be interesting for domestic power storage - if you had solar cells or a windmill on the roof.
Even if they turned out to be too heavy for cars, this would not be a problem in a domestic situation.
How would it compare to LiOn ?
If it is 1/5 the cost of NiMh, it could make for quite a nice hybrid application, even if it did not have the bragging rights of a LiOn battery powered one.
I wonder if they have tried it in a Prius ?

For all the ballyhoo about Li-ion, the good old lead-acid battery isn't about to go away anytime soon. Design refinements such as those described above will keep lead-acid competitive, especially for the micro-hybrid applications that will likely become standard issue in many cars in the next 10 years.

Remember, a 5% gain on 50% of all new cars makes twice the dent in fleet average fuel economy that a 25% gain on 5% of new cars does. Full hybrids account for barely 2% of US LDV sales right now and deliver just 15-20% more MPG than comparable conventional models.

The battery-UC combo cells sound particularly promising. Of course, the starter and alternator functions also need to be optimized for efficiency to maximize the benefit. Only if and when battery cost per kW and Ah comes down and, regulators demand further reductions in fleet average fuel consumption/CO2 emissions, will the industry bite the bullet and switch to a higher voltage grid, e.g. 42VDC.

Lead production is limited - if we start trying to make millions of 1.5 kWh PbA batteries, we will rapidly run into lead supply constraints - yes production can be expanded but it is a toxic, unpleasant metal to mass produce.

Zinc Air is the ONLY feasible mass market EV/HEV battery technology. Zinc is the metal already used in global production of alkaline and Zinc carbon batteries. Current metal prices: Nickel - $45,000 /tonne, Zinc - $3,500 / tonne. Cheap, abundant, high production and highest specific energy of any EV battery, including LiIon.

Emphyrio, have you read up on nickel-zinc batteries? So far the best sourceof information I have on them is on the company website for PowerGenix.
http://www.powergenix.com/service.htm

The claim is that the batteries are easiily recyclable with a power output similar to NiCd. Battery technology, in fact energy storage as a whole, has several technologies in the works. It will be interesting to see which combination works best or the OEM's pick. It might even be one of these new PbA cells.

Lad: I think things are actually happening. But for those of us on the without big budgets and large volumes it seems terribly slow. I've been trying to upgrade my limited speed motorcycle/scooter for almost a year now and it's only recently that we've had any success finding a supplier of LiFePO4 batteries. I'm hoping that once EVs catch on things will accelerate as the economics swing in our favour.

So, when will we see the Firefly foam+lead plates combined with a cheap, light ultracapacitor?

Speaking of cheap ultra capacitors, anybody heard any recent rumors about eestor's ceramic powder ultracapacitors?

What does Lithium cost per ton? What does Lead cost?

David R,,

Recycling is no panacea, but when you replace a battery the auto-parts store will usually refuse to sell the battery to you unless you put down a deposit ("core charge"). You get the deposit back when you bring old battery (and your receipt) back for recycling. This is true for many parts (alternators, brake pads, etc), but, like junkyards and scrapyards, nobody talks about this kind of recycling much because it's the status quo and because it makes money for the supply-chain either way...

I like lightweight components as much as the next guy, but my reflex is to put the emphasis on maintaining my current vehicle so that another one doesn't need to be manufactured...

If you talk EV battery these days and not mention NANOSAFE from AltairNano(Alti)...you are not really talking EV battery.

"Interesting, since neither is in the direct battery making business......"

Toyota owns Panasonic EV, which manufactures the old-skool NiMH hybrid battery packs, and has come up with and will manufacture the new lithium-ion packs for the next Prius.

By doing this the costs can be kept low. Incidentally, the cost of lithium is only a very small percentage of the cost of a typical lithium-ion battery. There are dozens of areas where costs could be cut dramatically with economies of scale (a fact Toyota are well aware of).

Zinc-air batteries are not electrically rechargeable so they can't replace Li-ion, NiH, and Pb batteries.

Zinc-air or metal-air batteries (zinc is just one possible fuel, others include magnesium aluminum, iron, etc) are not batteries but fuel cells that use metal instead of hydrogen. The advantage over a hydrogen fuel cell system is the metals are much MUCH safer and easier to store (as an electrolyte paste, or pellets or in plated cassettes). The disadvantage is the spent metal oxides must be recycled either at a refueling station or at a recycling plant. For some reason people go on and on about hydrogen as the fuel of the future, but metal-air fuel cells have already solved the problems of storage and fuel cell price that hydrogen is still struggling with.

Mark A

Both Toyota and Nissan are heavily invested in Li-ion batteries - do your research.
As others have mentioned Lithium is available everywhere - again do your research.
Just about anything can happen in the future with battery technology - but for now ALL auto manufactures and looking to Li-ion - search this site for the last two years for articles on Li-ion activity.

Aquiring a company that makes batteries, in my mind, does not make you a battery manufacturer. Just an invester, with a vested interest in using what your investment is producing.

As far as the lithium supply, I heard reports about there either being "severe shortages", to "barely able to meet demands". Heres one such link:

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37311

Obviously I am no battery expert, or lithium expert, and have not kept on top of it sufficiently. I only gather what info I can, when I can. Thats why I also frequent this site, to learn. After doing a little more digging, lithium production is not as dire as some of my earlier beliefs. But lithium production, storage, transportation, and use, does have its drawbacks and concerns, and is not the final answer.

But back on topic, battery powered EV's are our future for personal transport, even if it is to use lead. Any and all power storage breakthroughs are achievements that should be applauded, as well as incorporated. Even if that means combining old and new battery technologies, if necessary. Lead acid is proven, and recyclable. Hydrogen powered fuel cells are close. Lets use what we can, to move forward. I am optimistic of our future!

Lithium is a poison.
Lead is a poison.
Copper is a poison.
Iron is even a poison.
Cadmium is declared a poison, but some sea life needs it.
The natural potassium in a person or its foods is and always has been radioactive.
In the wrong quantity or form, every element in the human body can kill it as well. Pounds of phosphorus compounds are processed by the body every day, but a small amount of the element will kill it.
Far more people are killed by cars than are killed by lead.

Everyone should fear a car much more than lead.

It is impossible to remove all of the dangers of life by declaring them dangerous and banning them.

The concrete safety barricades with multiple slopes that allowed tire contact without car body contact have been abandoned in favor of easier to build and maintain "walls" that will cost more lives and damage than lead batteries ever will.

Before lead is banned any more, all products that kill more people per year should be eliminated.

There are batteries available for long distance electric cars, but they cost too much as do lithium batteries. Plug in hybrid cars are the answer to the long distance problem. Light engines are being made that could be used for long distance travel in hybrid cars. A 13 hp engine is said to weigh 13 pounds(OPOC). With a plug in hybrid the engine can be used at maximum available efficiency or at maximum power depending on the immediate needs or wants, and the electric system helps fill in the gaps.

The UPS hydraulic hybrid could be a model for an inexpensive plug in hybrid cars. Very high power can be had for brief periods of time from compressed air tanks coupled with hydraulic motors. High power electric motors and their required transistorized contollers are now too expensive. Batteries and small engines can be coupled with the hydraulic system.

One Un-interruptable power system has combined tanks of compressed air, heat storage, fast air turbines and small cheaper flywheels to substitute for batteries. Compressed air hybrid cars could be an alternative to battery power in hybrids at lower cost. No crank diesel powered hydraulic pumps have been tested by some including NOAX.

For their horse power, steam locomotives had the best starting torque at a far lower price than diesel-electric locomotives. It is possible and economic to build coal fired steam locomotives that are cleaner burning and have much lower maintenance and operating costs than diesel locomotives. They can now even be built with more than half energy efficiency of diesels The raw price of the energy in crude oil is thirteen times the raw price of energy in coal delivered to the buyer. The cost of energy from diesel is about twice that of crude oil.

Diesel fueled small steam locomotives have been built recently that have similar fuel consumption per mile and much better starting performance and lower pollution than the diesel engines that they replaced. Better insulation and heat loss prevention were some reasons for this result. Also no fuel needs to be burnt on down hill grades with short up hill segments. A steam locomotive could be built easily that put heat back into the boiler on down hill runs. A small generator could be fitted to every wheel on the train, and while these generators were feeding the heaters in the boiler they would be braking the train without wear. There are actually more efficient ways of doing this as well. During times of coal shortages in Switzerland, some steam locomotives were fitted with electric heating elements in their boilers.

With modern materials and processes it would now be easy to build a coal-fired, steam semi-trailer-tractor-truck. It might have to be 100% percent bigger. It would have electric motors to run it in reverse, but would have a steam turbine directly coupled to the drive wheels for forward travel. The condenser for the steam would take up most of the extra space needed, but the boiler would also be extra large for long bursts of peak power for starts and hills. Gear shifting might be entirely eliminated. Steam turbine locomotives were used very successfully in some coutries for more than ten years, but modern materials might be brought to steam piston engines for higher performance possibly. There would be far less carbon particles, smoke or smell than a regular diesel. Clean coal slurry would be the fuel, but it could burn diesel or any other liquid fuel as well. No fuel at all would be burnt on long down hill grades except as preparation for a long up-hill, and as mentioned there are ways to return the hill energy to the boiler..HG...