Toyota Planning to Introduce Fuel Cell Car by 2015
23 June 2009
Toyota plans to introduce a hydrogen fuel cell car by 2015, according to comments made by vice president Masatami Takimoto in response to a question during a shareholders’ meeting at Toyota headquarters.
In a conference session at SAE World Congress 2009 in January, Justin Ward, Advanced Powertrain Program Manager, Toyota said that while Toyota sees market opportunity for small EVs, the company finds that a fuel cell hybrid vehicle has the advantage in well-to-wheel efficiency even now. (Earlier post.)
We feel that there is a place for EVs in the future, but what is that place? It’s pretty challenging for a full-range larger vehicle. We do see a market for the smaller, shorter range EVs. The key is to make sure your grid is clean. We don’t talk much about it these days, but we are still working very, very strongly on fuel cell technology.
—Justin Ward
In 2008, Toyota introduced a new, advanced version of its Highlander-based fuel cell hybrid vehicle (FCHV) equipped with a newly designed higher-performance Toyota fuel cell stack. The FCHV-adv provides a 25% improvement in fuel efficiency through improved fuel cell unit performance, enhancements to the regenerative braking system, and a reduction in energy consumed by the auxiliary systems. (Earlier post.)
Toyota is also applying its fuel cell technology in buses, material handling equipment, and residential co-generation systems.
Fuel cell advocates only has one argument left versus battery EVs and that is vehicle range. However, it is an argument that is about to disappear because of better battery technology and improvements in EV drive train technology. The best example is perhaps Tesla’s Model S a large 7 seat battery EV with two large trunks and a 300 miles range available from 2011. By 2015 I would be very surprised if Tesla can’t offer a battery for the Model S with a range of 500 miles. Luxury cars (over 50,000 USD) will all be EVs in the not so distant future because they give you the convenience of not having to visit a public gas station ever and because batteries can deliver far more peak power than any similar sized fuel cell car or ICE vehicle. That Highlander fuel cell EV only has 90kW of peak power which makes it slow and boring to drive. The Tesla roadster has 185kW peak power for comparison. Give that Highlander two Tesla motors of 185kW and a 100kWh battery so that 300 miles range is possible and it will be in much higher demand than the fuel cell version. Toyota should be able to pull that job by 2013.
Posted by: Account Deleted | 23 June 2009 at 01:07 PM
Henrik,
Well that might be true, it is also true batteries are not the best thing for the enviroment. Though you could recycle them, we really need to make advances towards are more bio-compatible solution.
One thing I have been proposing is ultracap/li-ion hybrid batteries, to buffer peak loads and be used for acceleration. Much like the Riversimple car, which only needs a tiny 6kW fuel cell to be used compared to the Clarity's 100kW fuel cells (even when counting in the mass difference, this is a huge improvement). It's a simple mechanical equation, dE = 1/2 m dv^2. As said in Riversimple articles, you use 5 times more power when accelerating then cruising.
Imagine how much battery volume and mass you could save. Also buffering the peak loads means much longer life span. Of course, this is significant to city cars or sport cars, but less for cruisers. Still I think if you scale the ultracap correctly, it is a worthy element to any BEV car.
If fuel cells will really be Toyota's new way to go, I'd suggest investment in gasoline/diesel SOFC rather than hydrogen, which could be the future of RE-EV's.
Posted by: dieqast | 23 June 2009 at 02:12 PM
Um henrik the reason they ALL are looking at fuel cell and battery tech is they know where both techs are going.
The last few generations of fuel cells have realy shown the direction they are heading. Far smaller more powerful longer lasting better fuel economy and cheaper.
In some design lab somewhere they are doing sims on cars with expected 2015 batteries and fuel cells.
While we have no idea what they will be im sure they have a good idea and thus why they plan on selling them.
One issue with batteries even in 2015 is likely a 300 plus mile range ev suv of even the highlander midsize cvlass would require a 1 ton pack costing 75 grand or more. You can imagine what a full size suv would need;/
It is highly likely by 2015 toyota will be able to field a cost effective long lasting 180-250 kw fuel cell stack/ compact lith ion/super cap combo system capable of going 6-800 miles on a fill. Not cheap but then not 75 grand extra;/
Posted by: wintermane2000 | 23 June 2009 at 04:04 PM
According to Wikipedia the 300 miles Model S will be priced at 65,000 USD. The battery can’t be much more than 25,000 USD. For a 100kWh, 300 miles EV Highlander it will be about the same battery price or perhaps 30,000 USD by 2012. It will be heavier than a gasoline version (about 500 kg = 750 kg battery - 250 kg saved by using light weight electric motors (Tesla’s EV motor is over 5kW/kg)) but with two 185kW motors it will still accelerate like a bat out of hell.
Posted by: Account Deleted | 24 June 2009 at 12:34 AM
Henrik the base model of that sedan costs 56400 before rebate. Thats for the 160 mile version.
Now im assuming.. stop me if its silly to assume this.. that an suv even a midsize one will eat alot more power then a very aero small/medium sedan. Im also assuming as always they are not yet converting thier milage numbers like toyota has to thus I have to manualy lop off a chunk.
I also have to assume toyota will use its own motors which will like other car companies be more robust and thus heavy then teslas.
Also I have to assume toyota and honda and others are looking to 2020-2025-2030 and trying to come up with a 20 grand car that can have a 300 mile range.. as in something they can profit off of.
See in lots of 500k they EXPECT to be able to make fcev normal cars for just 3k for the fuel cell and less then 1k for the tank. By sometime shortly after 2015. God knows how cheap they expect them to be by 2025.
Posted by: wintermane2000 | 24 June 2009 at 04:12 AM
Serge
Well that might be true, it is also true batteries are not the best thing for the enviroment.
Don't remain stuck in the NiCd/Pb acid past. Lithium-ion batteries can be discarded in your household garbage. Why is that allowed? Because they contain no toxic substances. Please stop spreading wrong information.
Posted by: Arne | 24 June 2009 at 02:33 PM
wintermane
I'm also assuming as always they are not yet converting thier milage numbers like toyota has to thus I have to manualy lop off a chunk
I don't really get this. What do you mean by 'converting their mileage numbers like toyota'? What conversion are you talking about?
It is highly likely by 2015 toyota will be able to field a cost effective long lasting 180-250 kw fuel cell stack/ compact lith ion/super cap combo system capable of going 6-800 miles on a fill. Not cheap but then not 75 grand extra;/
Do you have any concrete evidence to make me actually believe that for 2 microseconds? You're just dreaming it up, sorry to put it so bluntly. They didn't even use Lithum-ion for the new Prius because they need affordable rock solid proven technology. And now you're actually saying they will put all that in a car by 2015 and SELL it? You don't believe that yourself.
See in lots of 500k they EXPECT to be able to make fcev normal cars for just 3k for the fuel cell and less then 1k for the tank. By sometime shortly after 2015. God knows how cheap they expect them to be by 2025.
You should see what BEV aficionado's EXPECT batteries to cost in 2015. Expectations are worthless. Seeing is believing. What I see is battery cars on sale NOW and h2 cars not. You can lease the Clarity. If you can get it. Remembers me of how the EV-1 was only available for lease.
Posted by: Arne | 24 June 2009 at 02:54 PM
Anne
It's not my intention to spread wrong info. The cobalt in the cathode is not the most friendly stuff to human kind, You are correct it isn't anywhere near old batteries though.
Posted by: dieqast | 24 June 2009 at 04:41 PM
Anne the big car companies get thier milage numbers lowered by law to supposedly better relfect thier true mpg/ Even h2 and bev cars from them have that happen. This is partly why you always now get better mpg then the sticker says you will.
Small car companies dont have to do that and instead these bev car makers are using umodded city numbers.
The basic result its impossible to compare them.
As far as toyota making a economicaly feasable h2 fuel cell car by 2015 yes I do expect that because they wouldnt have nailed the date down otherwise and because that still gives them 2 more generations of fuel cells to get the buggers better.. Now by economicaly feasable im talking some sort of greeny car like the tesla only with alot more range.. after all they already hit 516 mile range awhile ago.
As for lith ion im talking compact cheap high power low kwh lith ion packs under front seat.. strictly 35 or so kw output im not talking prius level. Im also talking a cheap supercap pack OR that compact lith pack not both at the same time.
I figure 2 of those would boost the output 70-80 kw for a few seconds.
Posted by: wintermane2000 | 24 June 2009 at 04:49 PM
Small correction to my statement above of 5kW/kg for the Roadster motor. I discovered that Tesla’s own website say their motor is 115 lb and 185kW. This is 185/(0.4535*115) = 3.5kW/kg. At another website it was described as a 70 pound motor. The difference may be an error at the other website or it may be because Tesla includes the weight of some needed power electronics that is not included at the other source. In any case to use EV motors instead of ICE motors could easily save over 100 kilo for motors rated at 185kW of peak power. Detroit electric also say they have a patented 5kW/kg EV motor. I don’t think 3.5 to 5kW/kg is a rarity for high end electric motors.
About battery weight I found a source saying that the A123 20Ah cell dedicated for EV use is 160Wh/kg at the cell level, 140Wh/kg at the module level and my guess is that it is 125Wh at the battery pack level. See http://www.sequence-omega.net/2009/05/24/a123s-20ah-battery-putting-it-together/
This means a 100kWh battery for a Highlander EV should be close to 800 kg. I am sure A123 can do better in future versions of their battery cells, modules and pack systems but whether it is going to be possible to do a battery pack with a 500 miles range for the Model S in 2015 is just a wild guess from my side. Is 300 miles possible with a 100kWh battery for a Highlander? It can’t be very wrong also because the smaller iMIEV can do 100 miles Japanese cycle on just 16 kWh.
Posted by: Account Deleted | 25 June 2009 at 12:03 AM