@peskanov:

Just so.
I was as enthusiastic as the next guy about battery 'breakthroughs' coming real soon to enable big batteries at prices comparable to ICE.

And I have plenty of bookmarks on silicon anodes etc from a decade or so ago to show it.

Will economically competitive big batteries happen?

Absolutely.

But the time lines touted to force things through at huge cost to others are as shot away as they have ever been.

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/12/nexeon-20091202.html#more

' The company has a fully automated and instrumented pilot plant in full operation, capable of producing more than 1 kg of material a day (enough material for approximately 500 x 18650 cells). Further proprietary equipment has been designed and is now in the final stages of being tested' (silicon anodes)

Lovely.

Check out the date.

2009

@Davemart
Some good reads from the UK:Dr. Jody Muelaner, a research fellow in the Department of Mechanical Engineering. at the University of Bath.
He has led SAE International’s research on transport decarbonization.
https://www.muelaner.com/freelance-writing/

The Talga Group is a Natural Graphite Mining company that just opened their Vittangi Mine in Sweden. So they are trying to supply Europe with low CO2 Graphite Anodes and have recently fast tracked the Talnode-Si Anode.
Talga Group has been working with Farasis Energy (partly owned by Daimler). Farasis recently announced a fast charging battery - 2.4C to 5C - that appears to have a Silicon based anode.
“Farasis Energy launches Super Pouch Solution”
https://autonews.gasgoo.com/china_news/70021248.html

@peskanov said:

' And that's one the reasons I take Toyota's claim of having a fantastic SSB with a grain of salt.'

?? Please link the claims from Toyota itself on which you base your remarks or retract.

I have followed them closely on the matter, and I have seen no such claims.

On the contrary, they speak of the difficulties in moving to full scale production, and the probable long time lines.

Here is Toyota itself in September 2021, as opposed to those seeking to use their own spin, by setting targets and dates which Toyota never has, then falsely claiming 'failure' against their own invention:

https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/35971839.html#presentation

' In June last year, we built a vehicle equipped with all-solid-state batteries, conducted test runs on a test course, and obtained driving data.

Based on that data, we continued to make improvements, and in August last year, we obtained license plate registration for vehicles equipped with all-solid-state batteries and conducted test drives.

There are some things that we have learned during the development process.

All-solid-state batteries are expected to have higher output because of the fast movement of ions within them.

Therefore, we would like to take advantage of the favorable properties of all-solid-state batteries by also using them in HEVs.

On the other hand, we found that short service life was an issue.

To solve this and other issues, we need to continue development, mainly of solid electrolyte materials.

We feel that having identified an issue has brought us one step closer to commercialization.'

So they simply say they are not ready, and the aim is as it has been for years to move to some limited commercial production by the SECOND half of the 2020's

They have also identified issues on production, which they are some way off solving

I respect your knowledge and contribution here, but your claim is entirely false, and Toyota have never hyped the productionreadiness of their solid state batteries.

Please retract.

With thanks.

Hi Gryf:

Interesting stuff.

My concern however has simply been to point out that Toyota have not misrepresented its solid state technology, or made exaggerrated claims.

That has been the provenance of others, predominently big battery right now enthusiasts.

It is false to claim that they have been engaged in puffery.

That is not Toyota's style.

@peskanov:

I expect more accuracy than that from you.

I have provided the linked actual words of Toyota in their most recent press release on the subject, in which they made clear that they have considerable obstacles still to overcome, as of 2021.

I could dig out other comments they have made, indicating that manufacturing of their preferred solid state option poses considerable difficulties, but it is not worth the bother, since you provide nothing exact, linked or sourced.

What you have prolvided to substantiate your claim that Toyota are overselling their tech is a FIVE YEAR old third party article, translated who knows how accurately, from a also third party Japanese newspaper article.

Note that you do not even say that at 'one stage' Toyota may have oversold, but claim that they still do.

If you think that anything you have said would be regarded as evidential by any sensible person, you are deluding yourself.

I repeat, either substantiate your claims with linked quotes from Toyota itself making false or exaggerated claims about their solid state batttery, or retract.

Fan dancing about it is absurd, and detracts from your credibility.

I screw up loads of times, and then retract when I am shown to have done so.

There is no basis for your claims, and you know it.

Hi Gryf

That is not the only battery venture Hyundai is engaged in:

https://www.hyundainews.com/en-us/releases/3429

' (October 28, 2021) Factorial Energy (Factorial), Hyundai Motor Company and Kia Corporation (collectively “Hyundai”) are partnering to test Factorial’s novel solid-state battery technology and its integration in Hyundai electric vehicles. Under the Joint Development Agreement, which includes a strategic investment, the companies will integrate Factorial technology at the cell, module, and system levels, perform vehicle-level integration, and co-develop specifications for manufacturing Factorial’s batteries. The announcement is Factorial’s first major strategic investment from a major automotive Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) group and deepens its existing research relationship with Hyundai.'

And:

' Factorial’s world-class leadership team includes former Chairman and CEO of Panasonic Corporation of North America Joe Taylor as executive chairman. In addition, Dieter Zetsche, former Chairman of the Board of Management of Daimler AG and Head of Mercedes-Benz; Mark Fields, former Ford Motor Company CEO; and Harry Wilson, former senior advisor to the Obama Administration’s Presidential Task Force on the Auto Industry, are members of Factorial’s advisory board.'

And the links between Panasonic with Toyota go way, way back.

Of the top 4 battery patent holders, Toyota and Panasonic make two of them.

The big boys are not betting exclusively on one technology or approach, although of course they try to concentate their efforts

As I noted, something is going to work, but the precise flavour is not clear yet, and the time lines tend to be overhyped, although NOT by Toyota.

@peskanov:

' it's my belief (yes, just belief) all those news "leaked" from Toyota these recent years come directly from Toyota themselves.'

It appears that that is what you wish to think, and don't worry about evidence, as you fancy thinking that.

I have read bucket loads of hype on batteries, and it is nothing like the moderate info that Toyota occasionally release.

I have no idea what bones you are trying to pick, or inventing, about what solid state can do, as every other company I am aware of says exactly the same thing about them as Toyota, save that many of them omit the 'POTENTIALLY'

I have no idea why you should feel the need to inform others that patents are not production, just as 'your feeling' about Toyota is wholly irrelevant and non evidential, save as it speaks to your biased reading of anything they say.

And Toyota have announced at CES that the first cars they do with solid state batteries will be hybrids, not BEVs, although we don't know whether it will be a plug in or not, and they have been very clear that releases are as and when remaining obstacles are sorted, not some sort of set in stone edict.

Try Tesla with self driving, or numerous other big battery BEV claims if you want to read hype.

Your false claims about the wholly responsible info from Toyota is a smear, 'they are just as bad as the rest'.

Your opinion on the matter is worth the same as your evidence.

@Davemart,
yes, Tesla FSD was (and still is) hyped to the max; they clearly overpromised.
And most, if not all of the companies solid state batteries are similarly overpromising. They usually omit or lie about some key feature, like price or scalability.

I will be more than happy to eat my words if Toyota delivers what they are promising.